please change combat focux damage nerf to wild strike.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

appropriate based on what logic? does picking one element buff the skill like it does with elemental hit "which was the original reason for the less damage modifier"?

picking an element is already nerfing the skill without the 50% less for many reasons such as:

1-trinity will not work if you pick 1 element only.
2- you take 2 jewel sockets which can amount to 80% crit multi or more.
3- you reduce the number of ailments you can inflict.

the less modifiers is justified for elemental hit because picking one element can triple your dps without it, it's not the case with wild strike.

so for it to be appropriate you either need ot change wild so that it can benefit from picking one element. or remove the the downside which is only adding to many other downsides that it already gets by picking an element.

To be clear: my position is quite specifically that using Combat Focus on Wild Strike should be suboptimal. Not equal: actively worse, at least in most cases and without significant investment and build focus. You might think that's not 'balanced' but I disagree, it's just balance based on things other than just numbers. It's balance based also on object identity and theme.

For better or worse, the nature of this genre is that by default, specialisation into just doing one type of thing is rewarded. There are many many other skills you can use if you want to hit things with just fire, just cold or just lightning (and add in Hatred or Herald of Ash or whatever without penalty!). Wild Strike exists specifically to defy that approach - it says "look, not only am I not going to just convert your damage to just one element you can focus on, I'm not even going to tell you which one is coming!". To have people then want to take that and drag it back into the norm is understandable (because that's what the game trains people to do) but it absolutely deserves to come with a penalty to acknowledge that the skill isn't Tame Strike, it went to the trouble of pushing outside the norm in the first place.

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Phrazz wrote:

Appropriate based on your personal logic, or appropriate based on your understanding of game/endgame balance?

Everyone's posts about how they'd like the game to be are based on their "personal logic". There is no correct answer. We all have an "understanding of game balance", but yours won't be the same as mine because our personal priorities and ideas about the game are different. So the answer to your question, am I saying it's appropriate based on my personal logic, or based on my understanding of game balance, is "yes".

I don't think things like 'Combat Focus nerfs Hatred damage if I get rid of cold' are problems. It's called Combat Focus because you're focusing on something; if you want broader damage type availability instead, to get the full benefit of a Herald or a "% added as element" mod or whatever, don't use it! That's okay! If the game can manage to include Avatar of Fire, it can handle Combat Focus.

And I really think that considering something a balance problem if it doesn't let your melee skill use X addon effectively is actually a wider, separate issue. No melee attack skill should require that X in order to be viable!

for the first part, you still don't get the problem. you are talking about how "choosing one element for wild strike should come with a penalty because it deifies the nature of the skill" but it is not the nature of the skill. doing weird stuff with a sill is the nture of poe. that's why we have poison spark for example.

but the again that's not the point! the point is, the downside should not be big enough to COMPLETELY disable other options. and if it is then why have the option at all ?

so i can repeat what i told you before, there are BIG DOWNSIDES for choosing one element for wild strike. downsides that exists OUTSIDE of the jewels.

just to repeat and name a few things you lose.

1-you could lose trinity,
2- you will lose elemental equilibrium
3- you are losing 80% ish crit multi by losing jewel sockets.

and there are many other downside that you can add up to that.

so once again, the problem with the jewel penalty for wild strike is not that it is a downside! it is that it COMPLETELY kills MOST of the options.

it's like saying.

HEY, you only want chain lightning ? cool, we will give you a way to target that, but the char you will end up with does not work.

it does not make sense, it's like why have the option in the first place then ?


but then we get to the second problem. the intention of the downside was to put elemental hit in line. so the fact that it skilled wild strike diversity is LITERALLY pure lazyiness from GGG side.

and if you ask me, the way ggg operates is as follows, no need to give a f abut a skill that only 3 players play. then they put that skill on a low priority and god knows how long it takes to fix it.



for your second point

there is no melee fix in any possible future that can make combat focus wild strike viable. by reading what i wrote above you will understand that it is just not possible to use the jewel with the skill anymore.

to put this in perspective, losing trinity and EQ is already a loss of 16% more damage and 25% more damage with little to not investment. and losing another 2 jewel sockets can add up to 20% more damage if you know wht you are doing.

the number we have now are 16% more lost, 25% more lost , 20% more lost. all separate sources so can be multiplicative.
adding to that the 50% less fire and cold for example, lets say for a total power loss of another 20-40%

no skill in the game should be strong enough to still be relevant after losing all those numbers.

so again, while i understand where you are coming from by saying things like "No melee attack skill should require that X in order to be viable!" is completely out of line in this scenario.

the numbers suggest that this is not a melee issue, this is a skill issue. because the skill is a low priority on the fixing list as long as not enough people are actually asking for a fix.

lastly, you say
" It's called Combat Focus because you're focusing on something; if you want broader damage type availability instead, to get the full benefit of a Herald or a "% added as element" mod or whatever, don't use it! That's okay!"

the simple answer to this, NO IT'S NOT OK. people do stuff because they want to have fun, if it is not fun for me to play ranged. then it means i actually rather not play the whole game than play ranged. telling people "if this option does not work, just do another" is like assuming that whatever people do they will be satisfied and enjoy it all the same.

i for one love wild strike chain lightning for example, there is NO skill in the game that is balanced around melee physical damage+ attack speed that can offer you that kind of chain lightning with melee scaling, it really is fun to me. the fact that it is impossible to make it work even though the option to target it exist. it does not make sense to me.

if you give me the option make it viable, dont' disappoint me by putting it out there and making it too weak to be picked.

people are doing weirder interactions, the weirdest shit. people would use a skill, convert phys to light to cold to fire then to chaos then use it to poison and then it would end up doing busted damage and tanky. and you would look at the final result and it would look Nothing like the skill designed originally intended for the skill to do.

changing the nature of the skill is just a part of what Poe is about.

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Phrazz wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

Everyone's posts about how they'd like the game to be are based on their "personal logic". There is no correct answer. We all have an "understanding of game balance", but yours won't be the same as mine because our personal priorities and ideas about the game are different. So the answer to your question, am I saying it's appropriate based on my personal logic, or based on my understanding of game balance, is "yes".

I don't think things like 'Combat Focus nerfs Hatred damage if I get rid of cold' are problems. It's called Combat Focus because you're focusing on something; if you want broader damage type availability instead, to get the full benefit of a Herald or a "% added as element" mod or whatever, don't use it! That's okay! If the game can manage to include Avatar of Fire, it can handle Combat Focus.

That's a decent answer, and it made your point of view somewhat clearer.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

And I really think that considering something a balance problem if it doesn't let your melee skill use X addon effectively is actually a wider, separate issue. No melee attack skill should require that X in order to be viable!

The thing is, though: That "wider, separate issue" has been an issue for God knows how long, and people just want a bone. A carrot. Something to make weapon-scaling melee builds to scale better. Removing the less multiplier on Combat Focus would help to do just that on Wild Strike, but I do agree that it would be a strange move thematically, and that it wouldn't really fix the "issue" for melee as a whole.

yup, but yea as i said with previous replies. changing the theme of the skill is everything people have been doing forever now and it i actually the progressive style of poe lately.

if we are talking about how you can alter the style of skills, then i have two words that goes Faaaar beyond this wild strike example.


original sin.

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

for the first part, you still don't get the problem. you are talking about how "choosing one element for wild strike should come with a penalty because it deifies the nature of the skill" but it is not the nature of the skill. doing weird stuff with a sill is the nture of poe. that's why we have poison spark for example.

If you were doing weird stuff with the skill that would be great. Taking one of the few skills that do unpredictable random elements and dragging it back to doing one optimisable element over and over like every other skill in the game is not weird stuff, it’s boring stuff. You’re de-weirding the skill.

It’s not that I don’t get your point. You don’t need to repeat yourself, you’re talking to a human being not hammering a nail into a wall. I understand your point just fine, I just don’t agree with you.

Which is fine! It’s not me you have to convince, I have zero power over this!

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

for the first part, you still don't get the problem. you are talking about how "choosing one element for wild strike should come with a penalty because it deifies the nature of the skill" but it is not the nature of the skill. doing weird stuff with a sill is the nture of poe. that's why we have poison spark for example.

If you were doing weird stuff with the skill that would be great. Taking one of the few skills that do unpredictable random elements and dragging it back to doing one optimisable element over and over like every other skill in the game is not weird stuff, it’s boring stuff. You’re de-weirding the skill.

It’s not that I don’t get your point. You don’t need to repeat yourself, you’re talking to a human being not hammering a nail into a wall. I understand your point just fine, I just don’t agree with you.

Which is fine! It’s not me you have to convince, I have zero power over this!

what's boring to you, is boring to you.

and you also don't get to agree or disagree. .and there are 2 reasons why you can't agree or disagree here.

1- i did not create the concept i am asking for them to balance. the jewel was their creation it's just too weak to be used. and this post is about making the jewel they created work.

2- the point is people enjoy doing things differently. so you can say "i don't find this fun" but then it would be like why are you even here ?
and you can't "disagree" on what i feel is fun cuz you know, i feel what i feel :p


but anyway responding to you is not about convicning you. it's about if you have a valid argument then someone gotta talk it over. for all we know part of ggg team might have the same idea as you and they need to also consider/reconsider.


btw, if you have never played wild strike, let me tell you chosing one element can be made into something stupidly weird :p you just don't know that yet cuz it can't be done when it's weak.

but one example i wanted to try would be a nimiscold wild strike. and nimis can only work if wild strike is cold. but the downside from the jewels combined o the downsides from losing other elements does not allow all possible interactions for the concept to be worth it.

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

what's boring to you, is boring to you.

Yes? Who else would I be speaking for?

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

and you also don't get to agree or disagree.

Uh...what? It's not clear from this that you know what disagreement is. People don't need permission to disagree with you, it's literally something that's happening inside their heads. You yourself disagree with my position; you do get to do that! It's okay, it's normal, it's not a problem.

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

and there are 2 reasons why you can't agree or disagree here.

1- i did not create the concept i am asking for them to balance. the jewel was their creation it's just too weak to be used. and this post is about making the jewel they created work.

Again, there's no need to repeat yourself. You made your position that the gem is 'too weak to be used' clear in the opening post.

(None of this is 'a reason I can't agree or disagree', either)

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

2- the point is people enjoy doing things differently. so you can say "i don't find this fun" but then it would be like why are you even here ?
and you can't "disagree" on what i feel is fun cuz you know, i feel what i feel :p

Oh now you understand that our thoughts are internal things that can't be denied. Cool, okay.

I haven't said "I don't find this fun" - I've made literally no comment about what I find fun. Nor am I disagreeing on what you feel. What you feel is your business. I'm disagreeing that it's a problem that Combat Focus limits the damage of the element you choose to cut out of Wild Strike.