DoT vs Hit-based Build Viability Needs Improvements

I've been playing PoE since ~2012 and love the game, but I want to leave some feedback on my perspective on the current state of build viability, especially with DoT vs Hit builds.

I love coming up with new builds for each league, but I find myself designing builds that focus around DoT a lot more than "hit" builds. I think this is kind of unfortunate, so I want to share my perspective.

The biggest threat in this game is standing still. And especially since Archnemesis, this threat has become a lot worse. Toxic balls, bearers, lightning mirages, etc. Even telegraphed boss attacks will instantly kill you, so constantly moving is undeniably the best form of survivability in the game.

This means that DoT builds get 100% DPS up time while maintaining the best form of defense possible, whereas non-DoT builds have to stand still to deal damage. This means hit-based builds require 2-5x the damage output of a DoT build to have the similar "kill times."

This would normally be okay if DoT builds were inherently weaker than the hit-based versions, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

DoT builds get access to one of the most convenient sources of more multipliers on the tree: +#% Damage Over Time Multiplier, which hit-based builds get NO equivalent to.

To speak in specifics, let's compare a hit-based Fireball build to a DoT-based Fireball build.

If I wanted to go hit-based, my equivalent of a "more multiplier" is Fire Damage Penetration. There are THREE sources of this on the tree, and they're on totally opposite sides. Even getting all 3 of them will give me a measly 19% Fire Penetration, which is nothing compared to the +79% DoT Multi I could easily get in comparison (without having to span all corners of the tree).

As well, many items can roll DoT multi on them, whereas almost nothing can roll hit-based elemental penetration.

If I wanted to make a hit-based elemental build viable, I would be forced to try for a Crystalized Omniscense, which is a ridiculous entry-requirement for such a large spread of elemental builds.

To make matters worse, now that curses are more effective against bosses in 3.20, this will actually BUFF DoT builds even more because they now have access to more resistance penetration than before.

tl;dr:

- Scaling DoT multi is too easy on the tree and in items.
- Archnem and dodge mechanics place too much emphasis on "constantly moving" which causes hit-based builds to do a fraction of their damage.
- Hit-based elemental builds are only viable with Crystalized Omniscense/heavy res-strip, which is hard to come by. We need more options.
- Curse changes will make the divide between DoT and Hit greater, as the lack of effective res-strip kept DoT builds in-line.

Conclusion:

I think adding more sources of damage penetration for hit-based builds on the tree would be a great start, but in general I want to feel a greater risk vs reward in deciding if I want to play a DoT build. For example:

If I play a DoT build, then I'm a lot safer, but my damage suffers.
If I play a Hit build, then I take a risk in standing still, but my damage makes up for it.

Hit-base's equivalent to Damage over Time Multiplier is Crit Multi, not penetration. There is a ton of Crit Multi on the tree.

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TemjinGold wrote:

Hit-base's equivalent to Damage over Time Multiplier is Crit Multi, not penetration. There is a ton of Crit Multi on the tree.

Good point, but I would still argue that investing into Crit is a lot harder to do than the equivalent investment into DoT multi.

That's an interesting stance. I can easily get ~600 crit multi (non-Nightblade/elusive) on one of my finished characters. I've never gotten anywhere near 600 DoT multi ever on a character.

Instant damage is better than dot because, it kills instantly.
Seen any dot based deep delvers, ever?

Crit will always be the king.

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TemjinGold wrote:

That's an interesting stance. I can easily get ~600 crit multi (non-Nightblade/elusive) on one of my finished characters. I've never gotten anywhere near 600 DoT multi ever on a character.

Would you mind pointing me to a character with 600+ crit multi? I tried importing a couple and I only saw ~400% multi with ~50% crit chance.

FWIW, my ignite flameblaster has ~294% DoT multi (+194%) as a hardcore character with loads of defense. And that isn't even close to "finished" -- my gear sucks with lots of opportunity for min-maxing.

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Instant damage is better than dot because, it kills instantly.
Seen any dot based deep delvers, ever?

Crit will always be the king.

Yeah but that's because the scaling of delve is wack and any build that isn't insta-killing mobs at that level will die. I wouldn't consider that a reason for why hit builds are generally competitive with DoT.

I would argue that killing instantly is just about equal to killing an enemy in < 0.5s (which is my experience with DoT builds). Except unlike hit builds, DoT can do bosses much easier, which every build has to do at the beginning of the league for unlocking the atlas.

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Izman wrote:

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

Instant damage is better than dot because, it kills instantly.
Seen any dot based deep delvers, ever?

Crit will always be the king.

Yeah but that's because the scaling of delve is wack and any build that isn't insta-killing mobs at that level will die. I wouldn't consider that a reason for why hit builds are generally competitive with DoT.

I would argue that killing instantly is just about equal to killing an enemy in < 0.5s (which is my experience with DoT builds). Except unlike hit builds, DoT can do bosses much easier, which every build has to do at the beginning of the league for unlocking the atlas.

Btw, DoT is game capped at 35mill dps.

I'm not saying DoT is bad, not at all. It's just nowhere near damage potential of hit based builds. I like DoT builds. But RF isn't the best skill to farm Simulacrum for example.

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Izman wrote:

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TemjinGold wrote:

That's an interesting stance. I can easily get ~600 crit multi (non-Nightblade/elusive) on one of my finished characters. I've never gotten anywhere near 600 DoT multi ever on a character.

Would you mind pointing me to a character with 600+ crit multi? I tried importing a couple and I only saw ~400% multi with ~50% crit chance.

FWIW, my ignite flameblaster has ~294% DoT multi (+194%) as a hardcore character with loads of defense. And that isn't even close to "finished" -- my gear sucks with lots of opportunity for min-maxing.

Sure here's a guy I played in 3.17:

https://pobb.in/5nznQ1D_dRzh

I'm honestly confused how you could come to a conclusion like this.

DoT builds are awful. All DoTs and Esp melee DoTs.

Long ago before they butchered DoTs some of these claims were accurate but not anymore. Poison requires stacks, Burning and Bleed require a good Proc 1-3 hits. Spell Hits just kill instantly.

I'd argue you have to actually stop moving more now with DoT builds because they do 1/10 the damage output and you have to keep applying them while spells you just cast once and go.