3.20 - Path of Hades League

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I KNOW as well that I'm constantly calling for a rogue-lite/like mode in PoE...but not like this. Not a league/expansion. They come with way too much baggage and expectations...and yet still don't go hard enough to do it right. :(

Although I do dig where they put it. Fellshrine is long overdue some love.

HC is roguelike mode and stash is your meta progress.

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Alendert wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I KNOW as well that I'm constantly calling for a rogue-lite/like mode in PoE...but not like this. Not a league/expansion. They come with way too much baggage and expectations...and yet still don't go hard enough to do it right. :(

Although I do dig where they put it. Fellshrine is long overdue some love.

HC is roguelike mode and stash is your meta progress.

Eh, and you can just stay in Twilight Strand for hours if you want.

Or play completely naked. Literally or figuratively, but if the former leave the webcam off.

Or just use white items.

Or refuse to allocate any points on the skilldrasil.

Or any number of self-enforced methods to pretend PoE is something it's not.

If you're really lucky, it'll catch on and the devs will give you a little badge so you can show everyone what a masochist you are. Is it admiration or pity in their eyes? Both, I imagine...but definitely more of one than the other.

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Eh so I watched the reveal trailer, read some of the notes. I stand by my sentiment: PoE has already proven its rogue-lite chops way back in beta (IYKYK), and this...this is not how it's done. Comparisons to the Labyrinth are not unfair at all -- it's a locked position on the map, doesn't involve true character reset upon failure, doesn't appear to impact the game overall (never a good league gimmick imo -- you know when GGG think they've a good league gimmick because they put it *everywhere* from The Coast onwards), and, well, it's still using the same characters made for the rest of the game.

And as someone else pointed out, the 'number of times hit' restriction is just going to constrict the range of builds used, which would be FINE if they were builds made purely for a rogue-lite mode using skills and gear tailor-made for said mode.

I get it: POE is a GAAS and for some people it's pretty much all they play, so seeing some of the greatest hit ideas from various genres adapted to Their One Game is a blast, but...I dunno, square peg round hole much?

So we're back to my original statement on a 'Hades' league: you could just play the game that did it already and did it very, very well...and didn't have to do anything else.

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innervation wrote:

It would be awesome if the challenge of the sanctum was to mechanically play the fights correctly and keep your resolve high instead of overtuned-as-fuck monsters like we've gotten ever since Delirium league.

Completely agree. Except about the 'since Delirium' part. Way further back than that imo. But given how far the power has crept (leapt more like, now), mechanically challenging fights require a lot more effort...unless you're willing to commit to a mode that strips the power creep entirely and resets the character/monster damage/durability relationship, which clearly GGG aren't. I doubt you'll see that before PoE 4.0 and then only because the new skill gem system demands it.

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innervation wrote:

It would be awesome if the challenge of the sanctum was to mechanically play the fights correctly and keep your resolve high instead of overtuned-as-fuck monsters like we've gotten ever since Delirium league.

I dont think we will get these random nigtmares anymore after AN change but i assume the Sanctum boss fights will be overtuend as usual in the first weeks of the league till they get nerfed.

I beat the post formatting boss, proof to follow.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

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innervation wrote:

It would be awesome if the challenge of the sanctum was to mechanically play the fights correctly and keep your resolve high instead of overtuned-as-fuck monsters like we've gotten ever since Delirium league.

Completely agree. Except about the 'since Delirium' part. Way further back than that imo. But given how far the power has crept (leapt more like, now), mechanically challenging fights require a lot more effort...unless you're willing to commit to a mode that strips the power creep entirely and resets the character/monster damage/durability relationship, which clearly GGG aren't. I doubt you'll that before PoE 4.0 and then only because the new skill gem system demands it.

You can pick 1 or two things out of a lot of pre-Deli leagues and say 'that was overtuned on release'. Maraketh Legions. The over-abundance of chaos damage in Incursion that marked the turning point of actually needing that stat as a check box on your character instead of a luxury. We could go through them one by one and have a wonderful jaunt down memory lane.

But Delirium. To me, that was the league that the league-specific content, instead of punching 1 or 2 map levels above its weight class, was overtuned by 7 map levels. That's how far down map tiers I had to go to stop dying occasionally to it. They even added 3 new elemental ailments to the game that you couldn't mitigate (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) Scorch, Brittle, and Sap. The mobs hindered and maimed you and debilitated you and did all kinds of other things I don't even remember but most of all of which are unmitigable and incomprehensible unless you stop mid-map (LOL) while you have a 3 second debuff to hover over it to see what the fuck it does.

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I was a late arrival to the Hades party having picked it up around 6 months ago. What a great game. If anyone reading hasn't played it yet...go treat yourself.

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gandhar0 wrote:

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innervation wrote:

It would be awesome if the challenge of the sanctum was to mechanically play the fights correctly and keep your resolve high instead of overtuned-as-fuck monsters like we've gotten ever since Delirium league.

I dont think we will get these random nigtmares anymore after AN change but i assume the Sanctum boss fights will be overtuend as usual in the first weeks of the league till they get nerfed.

In theory (in theory) the Sanctum will lean into trying to break your resolve over outright killing you.

It's a tantalizing departure from just about every other league we've had save for Blight (or Heist in it's originally proposed form). Most leagues 'challenge' you to build a character with 10/10 defenses and offenses - more than you've ever had before to beat the freshly minted 12/10 power monsters/bosses.

This league has a chance to challenge us to 'get good' in the more traditional, general gaming sense. It's going to test the reaction time of your mind and the dexterity of your hands, not your willingness to grind mid tier content and purchase a meta build for your re-roll character.

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innervation wrote:

I beat the post formatting boss, proof to follow.

If you meant me, I dunno, I think you missed a typo I made (and have since corrected). Don't feel bad; I do it ALL the time. Brain too for fingers, words get out. Sometimes I don't even catch their absence even with a slow reread outlout. Proofreaders are so, so important, especially the ones that can basically read one's mind as well as one's work.

Re actual response: fair enough, it really is subjective which is why I said 'imo'. Indeed we could argue it's been this way as far back as the HC-only league Invasion, which was to my knowledge the first time GGG overplayed the tuning hand and HC players collectively got up in arms over it (give or take; masochism in HC POE? Sayitaintso), but that was also intentional and locked away from the rest of the players who only had treasure boxes full of bad guys to deal with. And the occasional explosion of ice. Or dead bodies.

So really the query then is at which point did this get out of control? Again, kind of subjective. For you, Delirium. Which I did not play, because I'd already quit AND had I not likely would have made me quit because oh boy big grey areas full of overtuned fucks? I was already done with big purple areas full of overtuned fucks from Breach, thank you. For me, I really don't know. As you said, each league had spikes. I just know it had to be pre-Deli for me (I like the abbreviation btw; really connotes a nice mix of stinky cheese and a sausage machine, which is as good a metaphor for PoE as any) because I'd already quit by then.

And yeah, Hades is the shit. Supergiant Games can do almost no wrong -- Bastion, Transistor (my personal favourite, for fairly obvious reasons but female protag, talking sword, buttery smooth post-rock soundtrack...yeaaaah), Pyre and of course Hades are all winners in their unique way.

But I think calling ForbSanc 'a Hades wannabe' does both ForbSanc a disservice. Really, ForSanc is what is says on the box: PoE's spin on a roguelite mode, which many other games have implemented to extend their lifetime (my latest one was Vermintide 2's Chaos Wastes). Without the bespoke mechanics and 'feel' of Hades, ForbSanc is just too generic a mechanic to earn the comparison I think. GGG could easily have come up with the idea before Hades' release, I think.

Finally, why aren't you people screaming 'IT'S FORBIN' TIME!!!'? -- it's right there...

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

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innervation wrote:

I beat the post formatting boss, proof to follow.

If you meant me, I dunno, I think you missed a typo I made (and have since corrected). Don't feel bad; I do it ALL the time. Brain too for fingers, words get out. Sometimes I don't even catch their absence even with a slow reread outlout. Proofreaders are so, so important, especially the ones that can basically read one's mind as well as one's work.

No...I managed to double post a blank post. Missed a single ] somewhere. Corrected the second post and needed something pithy to do with the first.

On the topic of where they put the lore, I liked one guy's speculation that Doedre has a lot to do with it.

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In this league, you'll discover The Forbidden Sanctum, an ancient Templar enclave hidden beneath the Fellshrine Ruins. Abandoned for a long time, it is now controlled by a malevolent entity. You must explore it, uncover its secrets, and deal with the evil that lurks within.

Apparently the templar did a violence to Doedre in the Fellshrine Ruins. 'Malevolent entity' > malevolence is a curse > Doedre is the curser. There were some other reasons, I don't remember them all, but I'm convinced.

Hm. I'm not awesome at picking voices but does the narrator for the Forb trailer sound like Doedre "Darktongue" Stamatis' existing voice? It's really distorted in-game, right? I would be quite impressed if GGG got the original voice actor back.

As for her fate, we know from several lore items she was burned at the stake by High Templar Voll in The Western area of the Phrecian Forest. This is adequately described by the flavour text of Doedre's Skin:

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As she was sentenced to death, Doedre was silent.
As she was tied to the stake, Doedre was silent.
As the flames licked away her life, Doedre was silent.
But Wraeclast had not heard the last of her.

And indeed it had not: she pops up no less than three and a third times throughout the campaign as a boss. I already think she's somewhat overused, she and all the Godless Three/Depraved Trinity by act 9, but it was nice to see them get some sort of closure beyond tiny rooms in the Beast's gizzards.

After all that, for whatever little is left of her to then somehow take up residence in the basement of a long-abandoned outpost of those who undid her centuries ago seems...petty? Pointless? Forced?

But I think we've both seen how little most Exiles care for or think about the lore to this extent, so eh, why not.

I loved Hades, I just reinstalled it again after this announcement in fact.

forgot how the dialogue in Hades is top notch