Archmage Support

the gem got nerfed to a point where added lightning damage gives more damage for far less investment. on top of that a lot of items that increased mana cost got reworked to not work with archmage and not all builds work well with indigon.

Sanctuary of Thought giving 50% less mana cost is just rubbing salt on the wound.

please consider changing the superior quality bonus from "Supported Skills have 0.5% increased Mana Cost" to "Supported Skills have 1.5% increased Mana Cost" to make up for the nerfs.

Is extra 20% really enough? It got so much destroyed that it needs some serious buffing imo.

As far as i understand ggg has issue with one thing stacking builds, stack mana and mana alone to get damage and defense.

In current game state i dont think atchmage builds can even work, i mean they have some hp pool and can have damage if focused towards it, but the damage mobs do now archmage builds would be annihilated. Missing auras and no space for defenses is prime reason. That last change where they moved 10% mom to keystone should somewhat help, but i havent delved into it.

If simple mana stacking buff is not an option due to ggg's views and it still has to be distinct enough from ussuall other builds, im not really sure how to go about it.

But ar least i can say that i dont really like indigon personally. Very high ramped up damage, somewhat clunky and possibly entire architype balanced around it.

Yeah, Archmage definetly needs some love.

I propose the following changes:
1) Remove Supported Skills have (1-7) to (15-134) added Lightning Damage
2) Archmage inherits the damage type from the spell.
3) Supported Skills have a chance to deal Triple Damage equal to 1% of Mana Cost, up to (10-19.5)% <0.5% per gem level - to get a sweet 20% from lvl 21 gem>

If Triple is too big, can be Double with a slightly higher chance.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

As far as i understand ggg has issue with one thing stacking builds, stack mana and mana alone to get damage and defense.

Stat stacking is quite ok.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

In current game state i dont think atchmage builds can even work, i mean they have some hp pool and can have damage if focused towards it, but the damage mobs do now archmage builds would be annihilated. Missing auras and no space for defenses is prime reason.

The biggest nerf was Arcane Surge. It had a 0.5% flat mana regen instead of 30% increased mana regen. So it scaled with maximum mana, and that was HUGE for mana stackers' sustain/recovery.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

That last change where they moved 10% mom to keystone should somewhat help, but i havent delved into it.

The MoM change is more of a preparation move. It sets the stage, but in itself helps nothing because that 10% were on Cloak of Defiance or other gear.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

Is extra 20% really enough? It got so much destroyed that it needs some serious buffing imo.

As far as i understand ggg has issue with one thing stacking builds, stack mana and mana alone to get damage and defense.

In current game state i dont think atchmage builds can even work, i mean they have some hp pool and can have damage if focused towards it, but the damage mobs do now archmage builds would be annihilated. Missing auras and no space for defenses is prime reason. That last change where they moved 10% mom to keystone should somewhat help, but i havent delved into it.

If simple mana stacking buff is not an option due to ggg's views and it still has to be distinct enough from ussuall other builds, im not really sure how to go about it.

But ar least i can say that i dont really like indigon personally. Very high ramped up damage, somewhat clunky and possibly entire architype balanced around it.

GGG nerfed archmage becouse the damage it could reach was bonkers but instead of a small nerf to keep it down they whent with a nuclear nerf and the support become a joke i mean arcane cloack is a better archmage and you get defence as a bonus :/.

"

Sarganis87 wrote:

Yeah, Archmage definetly needs some love.

I propose the following changes:
1) Remove Supported Skills have (1-7) to (15-134) added Lightning Damage
2) Archmage inherits the damage type from the spell.
3) Supported Skills have a chance to deal Triple Damage equal to 1% of Mana Cost, up to (10-19.5)% <0.5% per gem level - to get a sweet 20% from lvl 21 gem>

If Triple is too big, can be Double with a slightly higher chance.

not a big fan of the double/triple damage mods but i like the "archmage inherits the base skill damage type"

"

caboom wrote:

not a big fan of the double/triple damage mods

Triple is a low-key fuck you to Annihilating Light. I really don't like that item and think it is a very lazy design.

Supported Skills deal 1% More Damage per 50 mana of the Skill's Mana Cost, up to (15-24.5)% <0.5% per gem level - to get a sweet 25% from a lvl 21 gem>

No problem.

"

caboom wrote:

but i like the "archmage inherits the base skill damage type"

I was baffled by the lightning-only restriction since the very introduction of Archmage Support.

I have a hunch that you can make a better archmage build by ditching agnosting and using energy shield as resource, since es recovery is so much more generous. But that would further prove that true archmage build needs buffing.

(Previously i have done proof concept it works, but it was way too extreme on stacking and as a result not so good. But maybe more tame version could work. I might try to fiddle a bit with pob later on).

Sorry mate.
But GGG's strategy is nuking all skills that actually work and call it vision.

Like making the fortify support gem not work against big badass monsters when you need it.
They do this on purpose.
Maybe it's a big phycological experiment to see how much crap people will take before quiting.

on the flip, isnt it problematic if the only way to really build a lightning caster effectively is using archmage?


i havent played with the new version, but the old prenerf was so powerful compared to the more conventional approaches it felt like you had to be mom to play a lightning caster. the damage of archmage was so far out compared to a normal flat + spell + crit damage setup that your basically play it that way or your build sucked, and once ur that invested in mana how are you gonna then be regular ci? or classic low life? or any other form of defence? youve already invested the entire house into mana, its now idiotic to not be a mom character.



its a really cool mechanic, the sort of cool mechanic that makes poe great. but it puts lightning casting in a weird position where this is either the superior way to do it which shuts the door on everything else right down to your defence and item stat choices or its inferior and then its a pointless joke.


do we really want to expand that problem to all spells? where now archmage is either something that sucks for all spells or is now mandatory for all spells and brings with it its mandatory defence mechanism?



got very mixed feelings about the entire thing tbh.

Well, archmage does suck with high cast rate spells, its closer to ignite build philosophy imo. You cant really build channeling skill with archmage and skills like crackling lance are less attractive.

Havent checked this league, but im pretty sure non-archmage builds are dominant. Prob due auras, things like aegis aurora, melding which goes well with previous two.

I think biggest offender was indigon (esp prenerf) and mana flask exploit which made mana level jump like crazy. I think its probably better having more calm mana.

Its really interesting how to make both versions (es and mom) viable or giving them different roles. Its like having two different casters from different games.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

on the flip, isnt it problematic if the only way to really build a lightning caster effectively is using archmage?

i havent played with the new version, but the old prenerf was so powerful compared to the more conventional approaches it felt like you had to be mom to play a lightning caster. the damage of archmage was so far out compared to a normal flat + spell + crit damage setup that your basically play it that way or your build sucked, and once ur that invested in mana how are you gonna then be regular ci? or classic low life? or any other form of defence? youve already invested the entire house into mana, its now idiotic to not be a mom character

do we really want to expand that problem to all spells? where now archmage is either something that sucks for all spells or is now mandatory for all spells and brings with it its mandatory defence mechanism?

Well, a good support gem should change the way you play the skill or the way you build the character. I remember how the support gems were advertised as a way to change the behavior of the skill.

Melee Physical Damage and Void Manipulation are examples of boring, "filler" support gems that contradict the original design by being just numeric multipliers. If anything, those should be removed. And impactful, interesting supports like Barrage or Archmage should be the ones devs focus their attention on.

So once Archmage is more or less balanced - yes, it should work with all damage types. Because right now it offers a unique way to build a character - and then shits on its own diversity.

"

Andrius319 wrote:

I think biggest offender was indigon (esp prenerf) and mana flask exploit which made mana level jump like crazy.

IMHO The biggest hit for MoM Agnostic builds was the Arcane Surge change in 3.15. It gutted the sustain by changing 0.5% flat mana regen to 30% increased mana regen.