[April 12] Initial Development Manifesto Feedback

so wait desync wont/cant be fixed?
good thing I stopped playing 3 weeks ago because of it.
ill come by and check on progress every once in a while

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BrentFasilo wrote:

I disagree. The games can be completely parallel and deterministic. The decision the client makes has to be the same decision the server WILL make (for non-cheaters.) The server and client (can) have exactly the same geometry, paths, mobs, everything. If decisions are being influenced by graphics cards, then that is just incorrect design. All that should happen is that the server plays exactly the same game (in effect shadowing the client), a little shifted in time.

Having the same RNG is not the point... Of course a pseudo-random sequence is deterministic. What YOU do isn't. Neither the time, nor the command issued. And since there's a delay between client and server, each will use slightly different assumptions to calculate pathing.

Your client knows when and where you move and pathes in consequence. The server only knows the same info X ms later. But it has already moved the mobs, so they're slightly off compared to what your client has.
And if you do something drastic, like use WB through a door, that difference in positions might trigger a whole chain of changes. Suddenly Mob 1, that was going through the door is blocked my mob2 and has to reroute, bumping mob 3 etc.

The only way it could be wholly deterministic would be either if your character was played by the client (IE be a bot) or the server waited for each input to send you the result.

And what's the point of sending RNG numbers with clicks ?


@Dan1986 What I'd like is for GGG to stop thinking "hardcore" trumps everything else. Make a few concessions in their design. Stop thinking desync is an acceptable tradeoff for holding onto their fetishes. It's not. The primary goal of a game is to be enjoyable for its users, It's not a piece of modern art only meant to reflect its author's feelings.

I don't think they will, so I have little hope the game will get better

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toomuchgas wrote:

Extremely disappointing read from the viewpoint of a soloplayer.

Extremely disappointing.

Agree, seems like solo play is very far down on the list of requirements and that is unfortunate. GGG seem to want an economy driven, cut-throat type of game, that a loot driven action RPG type of experience. Not a game style I am interested in at all to be honest.

I would really appreciate a type of system in place for a solo player to increase the difficulty of a map as well as increasing the loot of a map without having a party. Or heck, even a system in place that would allow a few friends to experience harder content. Initially, act 3 was pretty tough, but there isn't a new challenge. If the new challenge is in the really high lvl maps - e.g. 73-79, then I sigh as I have never even gotten a lvl 70 map. I have tons of 66/67 maps and have run a lot of 66/67/68 maps with maybe a dozen or more 69 maps.

If players want harder content, and if high end maps are the answer, this is a failure as I will (as well as the some players) get frustrated before I can even experience these higher lvl maps.

I realize act 3 isn't finished, there will always be new content, and act 4 is in the works. Perhaps this is just how it is and I will long breaks from PoE, play new content, undergo new challenges, and then quit only to wait for the next update/act/difficulty.

Also, WTB permanent cutthroat league.

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Dreamer000 wrote:

I have a proposition for the loot allocation options.

Have the player select their prefered loot allocation mode somewhere in the options menu.
Then, have the game automatically select the loot allocation mode according to the preferences of all the party memebers.

For example, in a party of 6, 4 chose "FFA", 2 chose "longer", the game automatically sets the looting to FFA. (I'll let you guys decide what would be chosen automatically in situations where it's tied, like 3 vs 3)


I'm just trying to streamline the system, so that people dont have to choose (and argue over) which loot system to choose, each time they form a party. With my system, everybody has already voted (by chosing their prefered system in the options menu) and the winning loot mode is automatically chosen as you form the party.

The "longer" would just drop instantly in this system

Regarding the pRNG thought experiment: As I understand networking, if you're trying to be as responsive as GGG seems to be attempting, you have to accept that sometimes your packets simply won't get to the other side. So some of those player actions simply won't make it to the server. Further, their engine probably doesn't store simulation state as a list of past actions that you can modify and get an updated game state out of. So if the server just doesn't get the memo on a player action right away, it can't necessarily get that action re-transmitted and slotted in the right place in the past and get everything updated to reflect that. Thus, desync.

Though I've not actually programmed a mulitplayer game, so mound of salt and so forth.

This proposition was made many times b4, but i say it again:

Why not to implement the roll-system? Like it was in World of Warcraft Calssic (no idea if the system changed meanwhile). In my eyes, it is the best solution.

Here a description of this system for people who dont know it:

1. A unique drops.
2. On all party members screens spawns a little time counter with three otions: Need, Greed, Pass. Players have 30 sec to make a choice.
3. After all players have choosen the desired option the server calculates per RNG a number for all choosers in the "highest" category (Need > Greed > Pass). All numbers will be displayed and the the highest number wins.
4. In WoW the item will be moved automatically to the winners inventory, in PoE the item may be locked for the winner for, lets say, 1 minute.

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Ikariusrb wrote:

A key indicator of how far wrong you've gone in your thinking "rubberbanding is good.". Wow, the level of disconnection from reality in that statement is profound. You have so focused your thinking around being set on doing things one way, that it has utterly destroyed your ability to think rationally about the issues surrounding it.

Rubberbanding is way better than swinging on targets that aren't there or getting punched from across the room. In a perfect world we'd have neither, but if I'm playing in reality I know which one I'll pick. I remember days of playing FPSs on terrible internet connections and seeing myself and others undergo tiny rubber-bands constantly. Troublesome yes, but playable.

I have a new proposition. This should be easier for everyone.

Phase one:
GGG doesn't do anything to change desync.
Players take their own initiative and get a more reliable connection; otherwise understand that they are at a loss due to inferior system and modem specs.

Phase two:
GGG slowly increments very minor fixes to the desync. First they start allowing bandwidth to be accessed higher if necessary, and then essentially "microthread" parts of the code to allow their servers to backtrack and compensate very minor things at this point. Mainly just player health.
Players continue to understand they're at a loss if they have substandards specs.

Phase three:
GGG stops any sort of help to the desync. Just sit back and watch to see if the servers and players are properly being aligned on at least the player health basis.
Players, while understanding if they're at a loss, try to play and see if things have improved for them.

Then simply repeat phase two and three until that portion is corrected, and have the server improve positioning between itself and the player. Very little effort necessary as GGG has already noted that it's practically being overlooked. GGG can stop bothering for a short duration of time if they get annoyed with it. Damage is already done, simply maintain and slowly adapt a fix into the game in coming patches.

i still don't get why you are so hesitant to allow the client to do more and more

only the bare essentials should be client/server related if i do a solo run and the client handles the positioning of mobs but gives feedback as to what the mobs do and possibly if there has been done fidling with it (in case of cheaters) then you don't have a problem right?

if your worried about player bots well ... every single game has it there is no preventing it. whether you do it server side or client side it will happen.

this would take care of the following things

1 solo play should no longer have lag issues
2 your servers will be taxed an insane amount less as well and can be completely dedicated to multiplayer and whatnot or all the different leagues you plan you guys are not a company that has money flying in like blizzard and who in turn just buys the best servers to deal with lag desync or rubberbanding issues. nobody expects you to either your a great company with awesome ideas and i love how the atmosphere of your game has truly something unique your choice of music top notch but these kind of issues will cost you a big player base in the end.

we live in a world were money becomes scarce and we gotta make the best out of it in the end its the size of your player base that decides the fate of this game. or how far you can take it.

in all honesty i dont mind playing underpowered melee at all in the end of the day if i can say i did it with melee becuz im skilled at this game that is a very rewarding feeling for a gamer its like you beat the game at ultra hardcore but if there is a big LUCK factor in it whether or not i desync or simply freeze or not that makes the game frustrating and in the end no fun to play

i have the spec's to play it in general i have like 70 fps but becuz of a mediocre connection and on top of the desync issues this game has you i can easily end up with a 5 second freeze the moment a boss character walks within my screen that is no hardcore thats just plain stupid was i as a player responsible for that? no i wasnt can i get a better connection? no where i live there aint anything better. i live in frikkin kodiak at the end of the world my connection is gonna be medoicre anywayz.

however even with that a lot of other games play relatively lagg free.