[April 12] Initial Development Manifesto Feedback
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After rereading the stuff about the desync issues, I wonder whether taking the no-stun passive would reduce desync for me, while I'm using cyclone...
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I just wanted to chime in to comment on the following, because it looks like a very easy solution is overlooked there:
" Add the defensive bonuses to melee weapon specific passives. Examples are already in the game in the form of the Staff +Block passives. Make major sword nodes give +block, major dagger nodes +dodge, major axe nodes some damageredux, or something similar. It should be easy to assign a fitting defensive boost to each weapon category and make it only work while such a weapon is equipped. Yes, theoretically, a ranged champion could switch over so his dagger and board to gain the benefits of his shield and some dodge chance provided by a "+x dodge when using daggers", but he would not be able to use his main skills while doing so. I see no real harm in that, and in fact it could even encourage some hybrid builds using a ranged and a melee skill that work with similar passives. If you really want to elimite the "swap to weapon and shield to run away safer" mechanic, be my guest - you can just make passive weapon specific bonuses only apply 5 seconds after switching or something like that, completely invalidating that exploit. Last edited by Stormfox#3549 on Apr 14, 2013, 9:14:01 AM
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I find the Desync post frankly depressing. It just confirms my feelings about GGG's mindset.
Like Chris's post says, they're caught between their desire to implement "hardcore game mechanics" and the laws of physics. And they're not willing to compromise one bit on their stance, even though it doesn't fit with technical limitations. What's sacrificed is player experience. And that's a VOLUNTARY choice on their part, not a bug. That's really sad. There's really little point in implementing game mechanics that rely on and DEMAND precise positioning if your system CANNOT display things accurately. There's no point implementing full entity collision, complex maps and "subtle" pathfinding if it results in movements that are only true server-side ! Or, at least, it does not make sense from a PLAYER or GAME PoV. It does not make sense if you're focused on delivering a satisfying experience for the end-user. But unfortunately it makes sense if the design's focus is to satisfy the Devs' wants first and foremost. If you look at it that way, it makes sense. Every single decision on the design probably matters to the dev team. Someone wants complex pathfinding and full collision because it's intellectually satisfying and/or a coding challenge. Someone else (or the whole team) wants precise positioning-dependent combat because it's more challenging and "feels right". Etc. So they implemented ALL of what they wanted. No compromise, even with the laws of physics. And from their PoV, it works "well enough". Who cares if the players says they get a bad experience ? They get a "good enough" experience ! And with UNCOMPROMIZING, HARDCORE mechanics ! That's often the trouble with dedicated high-tech people. They just can't see things from the user angle. I've witnessed it several times in my line of work. With very sad results. Bottom line, I don't have much hope left about PoE. The dev team will probably just cling to their obssessions till they get a reality check. Or go bankrupt. Unfortunately, most of the examples I've seen had people sticking to their guns till the bitter end. Death before Dishonor (or Bankruptcy before Compromize, rather) I guess. |
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" Then why doesnt RT stop these desync issues. IGN: RIPMYMARA
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" I'd like to know what constitutes a "hardcore" game mechanic, both with respect to desync and in general. Quoting the solutions that other games use from the manifesto: " The way D3 does it. This is a little annoying as it ruins the illusion of consistency of the game space, but this is neither here nor there with regard to "hardcore"ness. " This in particular I see as being neither here nor there with respect to "hardcore"ness. As I see it, accuracy is just a modifier of DPS. " I dunno about this one. I understand completely that the server can't trust the client for one moment. " I'm in favour of this sort of thing in Dark Souls (for example). But POE is an entirely different game. I would ask what purpose this serves in this game. |
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Thank you, GGG. You really give me hope for gaming. Can't wait for my new PC to come, haven't been able to play PoE since August and have been watching all the progress you guys made.
Here's to PoE and GGG! May you guys see continued success. :) |
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Good question :) My guess is that the "hardcore" part is mostly the devs perception. Notice that the post considers all the compromizes these games use as "cheating". I.E. if you allow a player character to hit when he should not due to distance, it's "cheating". If a bunch of desync mobs massacre you while you don't even know where you are, that's just unfortunate, but "hardcore".
How are concessions to the reality of latency "cheating" ? I might be wrong, but the whole thing smells of bias and excessive emotional involvement. I met some (bad) PnP GMs like that. Guys that could not accept that their mobs would be defeated or that the games rules were weighted in the players' favor. They just couldn't distance themselves and stay neutral. |
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About desync:
I don't understand the sync problem for non-cheating solo players AT ALL. This system should be completely deterministic. The only inputs to the system are mouse clicks and keystrokes. Timestamp EVERYTHING. On level change, the server sends the client a random number seed and a "go" timestamp. Then the server and the client play the exact same game with the exact same inputs. For non-cheaters, the two will never be out of sync. Graphics are irrelevant - the underlying simulation should be graphics independent. The graphical representation is merely a window into the simulation. This won't work without modification for multiplayer, but hey - I'd be extremely happy to play solo forever. What am I missing? |
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Nice to have an update from devs on what's being worked on and planned, thanks.
That said you REALLY need to get desync properly sorted and no excuses about how PoE is a more complex game mechanics wise are going to fly. This is far and away the single biggest issue plaguing this game and affects absolutely every single part of it unlike the other items. It is also about the most frustrating thing that you can have in any game; where you're basically constantly removing control of the player's character and telling them that what they see isn't real. I'd prefer a game with more cheating or more lag than to have to deal with this nonsense that you simply can't adapt to. The only adaption to desync is practicing closing the game fast so you don't die when shit inevitably hits the fan. Having mechanics like dodging projects or attacks, positioning character, stunning etc... is all ruined when the player can't proper avoid or make use of those mechanics. Solve the desync problem please! |
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I currently have PoE on "pending" because I like pick up groups and playign with strangers but couldn't stand the ninjalooting systems in place. Looking forward to seeing this implemented so I can get back ingame!
Draqone |
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