Diablo Immortal is the real POE killer

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DoubleU wrote:

Yeah, looks like there are some P2W elements in DI.
I downloaded it last night, will give it a go today.

Oh, no doubt there are. It's about as blatant as it gets. But I played most of the campaign during alpha with nothing but what I found. And it's a good campaign, for what it's worth. I'd be playing right now if the Oceanic servers weren't horrifically unstable. The monetisation is mostly in the endgame. Same with pretty much any 'popular' free to play game these days.

But equally likely is what you've just seen: periodic pushes of 'deals' and 'specials'. It's just the nature of the f2p mobile business. Take it or leave it, but there's a third option. I find it amusing to walk the middle path: take it but leave nothing behind. When one of those offers pops up I dismiss it with the same ease as I do popups on browsers or ads on TV. Nothing could be easier. In a way, I admire how completely bald-faced about their p2w these games are.

But here's a little thought: I'd rather play a blatantly p2w free to play game for free than a subtle free to play given the former are almost always very slick, easy affairs designed to encourage spending right out of the gate. The latter, and obviously this includes PoE, uses a different hook and different bait: instead of being deceptively inviting to lull you into a purchase, that sort of free to play leverages unrelenting difficulty and built-in frustration, gambling on the sort of player who cannot back down, who refuses to give up and let a game win...even if not playing and realising there's no shame in not wasting your time is the real win. In short, the blatant p2w is easier to resist because you tap your pride as a gamer not to succumb. The subtle p2w weaponises that same pride and turns it into a motivator not to quit -- and that, of course, means buying whatever tools you need to stay competitive, because it's not p2w right? And that competition isn't always something as clear-cut as in-game power. It might be collecting pets. Or supporter titles. Or whatever.

After all, why have I been able to play so many blatantly p2w free to play games and not spend a cent (or only contribute a few dollars a year) and yet threw so much cash at PoE? Or when I do get sucked into whaling a gacha game, I know the score: I'm swapping money for fleeting joy. The rush of a rare find. The satisfaction of completing a collection. People have been doing that for decades. Centuries maybe. Oh, they can pretend their stamp collection might be worth something someday but let's be honest: most aren't. Most just get buried in a box until you die and if you're REALLY lucky, someone will one day find it and think, my god, I'm rich!...of course, they're not. But at least that collection served one last purpose to bring a final flutter of joy to someone. The same cannot be said of most things we spend money on in the pursuit of positive distraction from how shitty life usually is.

ANYWAY, have fun with DI. It's absolutely a beta with p2w shoved in your face and terrible PC optimisation...but it sure is nice to hear the old man's voice again (he said, after switching the game to the Japanese voice track for the fuck of it).

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Ocylix wrote:

it is true. blizzard is back: take a game, copy and polish. this time it's genshin they copied. not the gameplay, but the monetization.

*i reserve the right to some sarcasm*

100% they did, but Genshin is basically Breasts of the Waifus so it's not like Mihoyo are any less suspect when it comes to 'copying'.

Besides, GGG did it first -- good luck playing PoE's endgame without ponying up. Monetising the endgame is nothing new.

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gladiatorpie wrote:

Lol that cant be real. Like you beat the dungeon and its like hey spend money for moar loot!

It's absolutely real, and not all that uncommon in the business. I'm free-playing a Match-3 that literally offers you real money deals after you level up in-game buildings through playing. It's hilarious but I'm guessing it works or they wouldn't do it.

___

Surely going on about DI's p2w is shooting fish in a barrel at this point. Is there anything more to being an Exile than just thriving on schadenfreude and scorn? Has the game really made you all this bitter that you find your pleasure in mocking largely unrelated things?

But eh, I suppose Support refuse to move these to Off-Topic where they belong, so maybe that's the function: as long as you're pointing your flamethrowers at shit like DI even in General Discussion, you're not collectively scorching PoE/GGG.

While I don't particularly like P2W in games, I can swallow it in mobile games. What I can't swallow, on the other hand, is when games interrupt my gameplay in an attempt to slip their hands down my wallet. No matter how many people tell me "that's just the nature of whatever", I will never be OK with it.

It's fun when people "are OK with it in D:I, that's just how the mobile market works", but bash the hell out of PoE's monetization model. People smarter than me would call it hypocrisy, I think. But hey, I guess no one would pay 50-60$ for a mobile game, right? And the money have to come from somewhere?

At the end of the day, I don't really care. I play ARPGs for the longevity and depth of endgame, and I can't really see myself dipping my toes into a Blizzard product anytime soon. I'm not their target audience these days, which is totally fine. And while PoE isn't the same game as it was, it's always marketed itself as "a hardcore, in-depth ARPG", which it in many ways has doubled down on. I can't really see a casual mobile game being a serious stick in the grinding gears of PoE, no matter how much of a joke this thread is.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

After all, why have I been able to play so many blatantly p2w free to play games and not spend a cent (or only contribute a few dollars a year) and yet threw so much cash at PoE?

because poe is a great game that is not p2w made by great people that deserved to be paid a wage for their hard work on the goal of making a truly great game, which they did, and those other games are trash garbage made by people whos goal was to exploit vulnerable people for money.

i spent way more on poe than any other game ever too, over 30x more than ive spent on any other game. dont beat yourself up over it and try and convince yourself left is right fit a desired explanation. its just genuinely a bunch of good people who tried to make a good game with as fair a monetisation model as they thought they could survive on. we wernt tricked out of our money and we didnt support something immoral, we made a decision, we knew what we were doing and why, the game is still here 10 years later, still a great game, still not p2w, its cool we dont need to be hard on ourselves over it. we were happy to pay the money at the time because we could see who these people were and what they were doing, and we were correct in our assessment of the people and the product.





diablo immortal is a disgusting p2w abomination, its actually outrageous how depraved the p2w money leeching is. even for a company like blizzard, to do this to their diablo franchise on a game they have promoted main stage from their company along side their lead titles like wow and overwatch is actually a new low, a significantly new low from a company that was already wallowing in the gutter. the people who have run the math on it are looking at 6 figure sums to max out ur char in an arpg with pvp where your power gained by equipment you grind for is capped in pvp but the power u gain through the gems you essentially need to $$$ for in order to skip the 5 figure hour grind have no power cap?

lol. in order to progress ur char it seems to be all about those gems, and to get the good ones u need to run the special rifts that cost a dollar or 2 to upgrade to? so its essentially like maps in poe, and all the maps are tier 1 maps but you need t16 maps to really get any xp, and if you dont spend anything you get a single t16 map every week... but you can upgrade all ur maps to t16 maps and just run 100+ t16 maps every day if u just pay uncle bliz a dollar or 2 for every single map individually?

come on man, gtfo of here. i dont play mobile games, ive never played mobile games or even looked a them, if thats what mobile games are then fuck mobile games. being a trash abomination is not its own excuse, it doesnt somehow feed back into the equation and then justify itself.

this is the game bliz announced at blizzcon to an arena full of diablo fans who were desperately hoping to hear news of D4 being put into development and then asked them if they didnt have mobile phones when they booed, as if the platform was the only difference between this and the previous 3 diablo games?

actual lol.

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Phrazz wrote:

While I don't particularly like P2W in games, I can swallow it in mobile games. What I can't swallow, on the other hand, is when games interrupt my gameplay in an attempt to slip their hands down my wallet. No matter how many people tell me "that's just the nature of whatever", I will never be OK with it.

It's fun when people "are OK with it in D:I, that's just how the mobile market works", but bash the hell out of PoE's monetization model. People smarter than me would call it hypocrisy, I think. But hey, I guess no one would pay 50-60$ for a mobile game, right? And the money have to come from somewhere?

At the end of the day, I don't really care. I play ARPGs for the longevity and depth of endgame, and I can't really see myself dipping my toes into a Blizzard product anytime soon. I'm not their target audience these days, which is totally fine. And while PoE isn't the same game as it was, it's always marketed itself as "a hardcore, in-depth ARPG", which it in many ways has doubled down on. I can't really see a casual mobile game being a serious stick in the grinding gears of PoE, no matter how much of a joke this thread is.

It's good to know when something isn't for you. I wish more people could be that enlightened.

Besides, it's all shit. All of it. I despised f2p before my time with PoE, throughout my time with PoE, and after PoE. PoE was great DESPITE being F2P, not because of it. And I say was, because it certainly isn't now. Not in the same way.

I just personally prefer when f2p developers are more honest about the shitty nature of it. Keeps us all on the same shitty page. I'm fairly sure the first time I really felt savvy to GGG's operation was when Chris asked hypothetically, 'everyone loves free stuff, right?' It was the closest to him just plain admitting 'the first taste is free' as he's ever likely to get. Because even before PoE, I knew that no, people generally don't like free stuff. They don't trust it. There was a comedy skit done here in Australia, probably mid 2000s, where a couple of comedians tried to give away money on the street. They'd observed two things beforehand: people automatically avoid being harassed by strangers in public, and people don't trust free shit. Combine the two and you have a very amusing little segment wherein a comedian is literally chasing after someone trying to give them a twenty dollar note.

Of course, it's all in the nature of the offer, but a little closer to home: I scored more readers selling my work than giving it away. When you give something away, people wonder what's wrong with it. Why isn't it worth selling? Doesn't it have any value to you, and if not, why would it for me?

And that's why F2P works: everyone knows there's a catch. And the more obvious the catch, the easier it is to negotiate. The more fun it is trying to avoid it. It's a game unto itself, especially if the surface level of the game is, as with D:I, entertaining enough.

So while a person is well within their rights to be not okay with any of it, we all have our own ways of navigating what is basically a river of shit. Or, as with most people I know in my real life, avoiding it altogether because as the saying goes, you don't have to wade in a sewer to know it stinks. Oh, we know it stinks, friends, but we still kind of like it.

Like I said, it's good to be self-aware. There's nothing hypocritical about accepting blatant and relentless pay to win is part of a game market but at the same time 'bashing the hell out of PoE's monetization model' because the two are fundamentally different in important ways. I can, similarly, accept that casinos are built head-to-toe to suck people's money out of them in mostly simple ways, and 'bash the hell out of' Magic the Gathering's booster pack system. Sure, they're both gambling, but one at least announces it in bright, flashing lights while the other, well, it starts innocently enough. A game here and there. A desire to bolster your first deck. And then another...and the worst thing is it's actually a very good game. It just happens to be also, well, gambling.

Let me dead clear here: I bash both games' monetisation model because it is beneath what the game could be. So far beneath it. In MTG's case, it's why deckbuilders like Dominion and Thunderstone are so popular -- instead of boosters, you get a full set to mix and match, and then occasional expansions. No gambling, but some investment over time. PoE came at it the other way around: what started as product and expansion/s, it made service. Sure, you don't buy boosters, but you do buy stash tabs and without those, the game is designed to be miserable. And you may argue, sure, but those tabs only cost, what, maybe a hundred bucks for a full complement? In that case, why not just release the game for that price with those stash tabs included? A silly question at this point, but the answer probably would include some variation of the words, 'that's not how you design a game to be played forever'.

What is really implicit is that PoE is really 'try before you buy'. 'All content free' is true the way 'the earth is a big ball of rock' is true. 'Content' is not even close to 'the full product' when your game is a service; what you're really selling is quality of life when it comes to consuming that content. So, again, when I 'bash' it, it's because it's based on a lie by omission. And oh, that is by far my least favourite sort of deception, because I'm a gullible, artless shit and I fall for it every time.

What I don't fall for is 'BUY THIS CHEST OF GOODIES, ONLY $2!' because I know I don't need those goodies to enjoy the game and if it turns out I do, I quit. I'm gullible and artless, not greedy and desperate.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

blah blah blah

And yet I don't see any challenge league achievements next to your name. Odd. Maybe if you feel PoE is so great, go grab a few of those instead of spending time here attacking a game you clearly have no intention of playing since, equally clearly, it's not for you. Just a suggestion. Have a nice day etc. I think you just reminded me of something I myself should be doing: checking to see if the Oceanic servers are any better so I can get through the Diablo Immortal campaign. Which I really enjoy. For free. JA NE. :)

are we going to forget how TGGG loves making fun of blizzard but their own game has been on decline for years now?

playing DI currently might be that breath you need.. and lets not forget how poe immortal mobile is silently under the rug, every mention of it has been ignored and 0 information about it since "exilecon"

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

...and I fall for it every time.

I don't particularly mind the F2P model. Sure, the world would probably be better off without it. But as you touch upon yourself: There is ALWAYS a catch when it comes to F2P. Even my mother knows that "F2P" isn't the same as "free". I guess you're right, it's all depends on that catch - and how that catch grinds your gears or tickles your fancy.

When it comes to PoE and stash tabs, I look at it sort of as a state of progression; you dip your little toe into the game, taste it, measure the heat and decide if you like it or not. Sure, you can taste as much as you want - for how long as you want, but if you really want to enjoy the game and everything it offers, you're better off spending a few dollars. Not many dollars, mind you; just a few. And when you do pay those few dollars, you know that the guy next to you will NEVER have a paying advantage over you ever.

Could PoE be more honest about it up front? Sure. But as I said; what I like most about PoE's approach, is that id doesn't "get in your face" about being a F2P game at all. I HATE in-game ads and in-game reminders/pop-ups telling you to buy this and that. I HATE that "new" Kirac logo, even though it's small and not really in your face. I hate that small line of text in your chat box, telling me there's a sale going on. But they aren't really "in your face", and they certainly do not interrupt your gameplay in any way, shape or form. In PoE, you pay a few dollars ONCE, and you never have to think about playing a F2P ever again.

If GGG one day add an in-game pop-up in any way, shape or form, I'm probably out. So I guess that's my "catch".

People unironically expected a MOBILE game to not have p2w elements..

I love the internet. (yet again)

Diablo Immortal is mega crap pay to win for phones transfer to pc to make money agian

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

But equally likely is what you've just seen: periodic pushes of 'deals' and 'specials'. It's just the nature of the f2p mobile business. Take it or leave it, but there's a third option. I find it amusing to walk the middle path: take it but leave nothing behind. When one of those offers pops up I dismiss it with the same ease as I do popups on browsers or ads on TV. Nothing could be easier. In a way, I admire how completely bald-faced about their p2w these games are.

Yikes! I thought people would learn enough to stay the hell away from "f2p" games.

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Phrazz wrote:

It's fun when people "are OK with it in D:I, that's just how the mobile market works", but bash the hell out of PoE's monetization model. People smarter than me would call it hypocrisy

Such a Strawman. People usually bash both. People saying DEAL WITH IT mean you have to face or handle something even when you dislike or hate it. Reality and fact of life.

But Diablo Immortal is P2W shithole, isn't it?