100% Spell Suppression sounds OP but 75% Spell Dodge is still superior
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Do you want your mind changed? It isn't very hard to explain but i'd still rather save the time if this is just a general troll statement :p
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" Not trolling. 75% dodge seems a lot superior but it also requires more investment. Sure for particular hit that would oneshot you mitigation is better but true oneshots are rare. I'd like to see the other side of the coin. Last edited by TorsteinTheFallen#1295 on May 4, 2022, 3:25:05 AM
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Of course spell dodge is superior, it requires more points.
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" It's less feasible for hc. You stack up your defenses in a way that doesn't guarantee survival. Eventually your spell dodge fails and you die. Alternatively, you could instead mitigate ALL spell damage and so your survival is less dependent on luck and relies more on not being dumb. You have control over the latter, but not on rng. Last edited by AlvinL_#4492 on May 4, 2022, 4:22:23 AM
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" Well firstly you hit on the fact Suppression is much cheaper and it isn't really like 1/2 its more like 1/3 in terms of budget value so its already got efficiency weighting in its favour. Then you just have to do the usual split for defensive mechanics to isolate which are best in actual game situations, i'll just rattle these off because it takes ages to do it mathematically and you'll get the point. lots of small hits, clearly spell dodge is the winner as the faster incoming attacks with low damage the closer to true value you get on defensive stats, due to recovery on dodge not being a thing however spell dodge doesn't perform better in this category by more than its % value. This category has extenuating circumstances also like armour being much more effective on small hits that tilt things but its spell dodge's best category. hits for like 1-3k is pretty even, spell dodge is still numerically superior however consistent damage intake is preferable to spiky damage intake because rng can't get you killed (or save you) and most importantly recovery works much better on consistent damage intake due to leech being removed at full life and the time taken to top back off. Just to express that last one in other terms if you are taking 1000 damage/second average and leech 1500/s the suppression build operates nearly at full at all times, the spell dodge build flips between the value of the hit and full in cycles. Big hits is where it starts to get weighted towards suppression. Keep in mind big hits are pretty rare and usually expected to be dodged manually. If you are gonna take spell hits for 5k and you have 5k life spell dodge will get you killed 25% of the time, you never die with spell suppression. The recovery mechanics I just mentioned also come into play - eat a shaper ball you've got 5k to recover and have to reach above that before you can risk another hit. Suppression only has to hit 2.5k recovery to be able to take another. Monster damage values have to work for characters that don't run spell suppression too and that compounds the big hits win for suppression, some spells simply can't kill you with suppression and that becomes a huge gameplay advantage - for example I used to plan for about 8k life to reliable eat die beam if i fucked up. If you take spell suppression you can survive it with 4k... a value that is low even by SC life standards. The same is true for block/dodge... except for when it isn't :p never trust rng. Should mention that once you get past the value where spell suppression will guarantee your survival spell dodge catapults to the top again on SC, if your gonna be taking spell hits for 15-20k before mitigation you'll die with both but you'll die 75% less with spell dodge. This a pretty rare category though. So just to give a quick tldr, dodge best for small hits but not the best defensive mechanic anyway as block recovery absolutely crushes it here. Mid-heavy hits increasingly favour spell suppression due to consistency, recovery and guaranteed survival thresholds. Dodge wins again soon as you push past guaranteed survival. Spell dodge is still a great defence, but the efficiency and scenarios make spell suppression the best value defence in the game right now IMO, well aside from block recovery for general mapping. This post is written like shit but I just got up so maybe i'll edit it later ;p |
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" It's about boss fights - in a typical boss fight, the mechanics come at a slower pace, allowing for recovery of health in the meantime, and they hit hard. Suppose the boss hits for 6k, and your character has 5k health. Let's say you get hit 20 times in the fight. If you've got 75 % spell dodge, than you die 5 times, the 5 times the spell dodge didn't work. With spell suppression, you die 0 times, because each of the 20 hits slaps you for 3k, which you recover before the next hit comes. This nuance gets lost in averages - in this example, you took 30k total damage with spell block and 60k total damage with spell suppression, so in averages, the spell block is twice as effective as spell suppression, yet in reality it's 5 deaths vs 0. Last edited by Xyel#0284 on May 4, 2022, 5:25:14 AM
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Xyel is hitting on a good point here which is EHP is abused these days as a value that players parrot at each other.
It was best when it meant your collective life/es/mana (if mom) and then the value was interpreted from there by experience. Now players just quote the values out of PoB which is useless information. At least include the expected hit in those calculations it matters a great deal. |
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Do you mean getting oneshot with 25% chance is better than getting hit for 50%+ of you life/es and survive instead? I don't think so. Also second option requires 1/3 less investment. Otherwise you will die with even higher chance.
Also if you go full armor with iron reflexes you may also pick magebane so unused dexterity will be used for extra suppression chance. |
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" It depends on your build. If you're a glass cannon where anything that hits you kills you, block might be more effective. I personally prefer damage mitigation. Spell Suppression is amazing as an additional layer to reduce the amount of damage taken on a hit. If you stack enough layers of mitigation, very few things hit you hard enough to matter. But as someone else mentioned, the two are not mutually exclusive. This is a false dilemma; the game doesn't force you to choose between them. Thanks for all the fish!
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" Actually they are, that's why the conundrum. You can have spell block along suppression but for spell dodge you gotta go Acrobatics. Or I'm missing something? " Sorry for the confusion, ill change the title. I meant 100% SS vs 75% Spell Dodge. " Tnx for the analysis. :) You make lot of good insights. PoE defensive philosophy and mantra so far was always "don't get hit", and I had more success with damage avoidance so far than with pure mitigation (sc btw). With just mitigation to get on par with much more available avoidance you would rly have to have seriously tanky char to survive Simulacrum scenario without dying. Suppression is quite easier to achieve, but they made it in correlation to Spell Dodge and left that you have to invest more to cap dodge. So, either they think dodge is better or it's unbalanced. I'm thinking of different scenarios that come to my mind... I'll make a test in standard vs Sirus and Maven with char that just has 5k life, capped res, ailment immunity and 100% Spell Suppression/75% Spell Dodge. I feel that Dodge will perform better but i'm eager to see myself. I'll post the videos. Last edited by TorsteinTheFallen#1295 on May 4, 2022, 9:52:13 AM
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