If a boss tutorial is required to avoid a surprise one shot then it's a bad design.

How is this predictable going in without watching a video or learning the hard way?

https://youtu.be/VJwRD2eUrIQ

Even with knowing. It seems like there's about a 400ms window between getting warped and getting slammed and an instant movement skill is required. Anything non instant is going to be slowed because the slow debuff is still in effect.

Synthesis was a great theme and mechanic but this is probably a part of why a lot of people didn't like it.

i dont mind hard bosses, i dont mind learning bosses but the big issue is that players have NOTHING to prepare them for END GAME boss fights.

diablo and poe actually did have this nailed down somewhat where end game bosses are introduced within the story campaign. players had an "in game tutorial" where they could learn the abilities.

they died? oh well they can jump right back in! i ll try avoiding that stupid attack that one shotted me next time.

say what you want about d3, but the end game players can know what to expect from bosses.

last epoch's approach to bosses is different. everything is CLEARLY telegraphed. i played LE blind, but all my boss deaths were my fault. i didnt feel cheated.

ggg doesnt want to adopt LE/d3's telegraphing as danger areas are a taboo for ggg. you're somehow supposed to "not be there" when it hits based on whatever indicators which are given.

40k inquisitor actually even has a "tactical" view where you can see your own aoes.

ggg chose to go with visuals/realism rather than practicality for this. i really wish ggg gave us a "tactical view" toggle that highlights danger zones.

another issue is how heavily gated things are. to attempt maven normally, you need to go through at least 100 maps and 10 invitations. maven is somewhat a bullet hell.

also you only get 6 tries.

the gatekeeping is so damn high a bar to climb. how are you supposed to learn when even an attempt is so costly it could be better to just sell the key.

on top of that, there's also bullshit degen on the floor mechanics which tell you YOU DONT HAVE TIME TO LEARN. KILL THE BOSS ASAP OR ELSE!

ironically, all the maven invites DO prepare you for the bosses. what i learned from the invites are:

- if your dps is low, maven heals/protects a boss, it might out heal all the damage you do
- if your dps is moderate, you might be able to whittle down a boss's hp but more bosses will spawn if you're slow. tanking 1-2 bosses can be fine, but when all of them are out, its not gonna be easy to tank.
- all the invites are simply unfair and were not balanced in any way.the best strategy is to have insane amount of dps so you can kill everything when they appear.

ultimately GGG has made a game where the best strategy is to just get a gazzillion dps. no skill required.

also, this mentality has nurtured a very elitist group of players who say the content is too easy and simply laugh off at players for not playing better.

rip build diversity.

that said, i CAN see ggg improving. the 2 new pinnacle bosses are done masterfully well.

they addressed the gatekeeping and learning issue by giving players "easy mode" until they manage to kill em for the first time. they also dont have BS degen floor mechanics so players can focus on fighting the bosses without worrying they're taking too much time.

so you flame dashed in front of a boss who had been doing the animation for a charged attack for multiple seconds(you know... things that tend to kill you from bosses) instead of elsewhere and complain.

lol

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dorkdude2 wrote:

so you flame dashed in front of a boss who had been doing the animation for a charged attack for multiple seconds(you know... things that tend to kill you from bosses) instead of elsewhere and complain.

lol

Not saying I agree with the OP, but there's valid complaints here.

Did you know to be ready for a Shaper slam? One shot if not. When Elder makes an expanding circle, did you know to be inside it? (spoiler: I did not watch a video for that, I did not) Sirus "DIE" beam, Maven brain filling the arena and you have to find a ledge.

A lot of bosses you basically have to watch a video. That isn't ideal. I don't strenuously complain unless I have a good solution handy, but there's improvements to be made here.

watching a video is your own choise... Either you learn through trial and error or you watch a guide. Do whatever fits your budget. I do however kind of agree with OP on one point. The part where cortex boss teleports you in and bonks you either requires huge defense or instant movement ability which is a pretty bad mechanic. There should be more ways to get away from it :)

In The Feared it gets extra lethal if he ports you on top of uber atziri stuff or into shaper beam/slam/whatever. Then again this is pretty much end game stuff so it should be difficult. They can do difficult but fair though.

I think all "surprise one-shots" can be tanked by characters who invest properly in defenses. Sirus Maze, Maven's memory game, Elder's circle, etc don't count as "surprise".

If you go into fight without enough defenses to take a hit, then you'd better know the mechanics.

Yeah this is a tough one, primarily because if a tutorial isn't required then they probably don't kill, if they don't kill its an easy boss.

That being said some mechanics are extremely hard to work out without just getting slammed by them repeatedly in different ways, Betrayal is quite a few years old now and I only learned last league how Catarona's slam worked.

things like the new bosses slams do huge damage but are so obviously telegraphed and timed that you don't need a tutorial for them - maybe the more complex mechanics should have some other cost rather than a death.

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arknath wrote:

watching a video is your own choise... Either you learn through trial and error or you watch a guide.

If you are a casual player, you cannot afford to do trial and error. Maven invitations are .7 Exalts at the moment, they were a lot more when Maven was new. Uber Elder sets used to be about 3 Exalt last time I checked (actually just checked, seems to be around 230c or so). Chayula Breachstones have come down, but used to be more than an Exalt, too. Shaper sets used to be about an Exalt. Cortex right now? 2 Exalt.

Point being, boss fights are expensive. And the game design incentivizes you to not go into a boss fight unless you are sure you can defeat the boss. And you got nowhere to learn. Times of white / yellow / red Elder, that was pretty good design. Right now? Not liking it.

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Char1983 wrote:

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arknath wrote:

watching a video is your own choise... Either you learn through trial and error or you watch a guide.

If you are a casual player, you cannot afford to do trial and error. Maven invitations are .7 Exalts at the moment, they were a lot more when Maven was new. Uber Elder sets used to be about 3 Exalt last time I checked (actually just checked, seems to be around 230c or so). Chayula Breachstones have come down, but used to be more than an Exalt, too. Shaper sets used to be about an Exalt. Cortex right now? 2 Exalt.

Point being, boss fights are expensive. And the game design incentivizes you to not go into a boss fight unless you are sure you can defeat the boss. And you got nowhere to learn. Times of white / yellow / red Elder, that was pretty good design. Right now? Not liking it.

This design is good for carry services business.

You can spend some exalts to learn the fights yourself, or hire someone who already did. At least now you can buy fragments for these "practice runs", and no longer need to grind 30+ maps for a specific boss fights.

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Char1983 wrote:

"

arknath wrote:

watching a video is your own choise... Either you learn through trial and error or you watch a guide.

If you are a casual player, you cannot afford to do trial and error. Maven invitations are .7 Exalts at the moment, they were a lot more when Maven was new. Uber Elder sets used to be about 3 Exalt last time I checked (actually just checked, seems to be around 230c or so). Chayula Breachstones have come down, but used to be more than an Exalt, too. Shaper sets used to be about an Exalt. Cortex right now? 2 Exalt.

Point being, boss fights are expensive. And the game design incentivizes you to not go into a boss fight unless you are sure you can defeat the boss. And you got nowhere to learn. Times of white / yellow / red Elder, that was pretty good design. Right now? Not liking it.

And to make matters worse, some of the bosses you brought up (Maven and Uber Elder) are essential if you want to have a maxed out atlas. Imagine paying that much just to try and get your maps to T16, meanwhile in the previous league, casuals can just run maps to get conquerors to spawn.

These are not even optional boss fights, something that casuals can just avoid due to lack of skill/time/strong build.