Atziri (each version separately) should count as atlas objectives

> That's where you are wrong. It lets GGG know there are at least 2 of us who don't like your idea for the game.

Good game design isn't a democracy of the most voices. It's the success of the best ideas. The fact that you don't understand that is part of the problem.

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Aragorn14 wrote:

And I pointed out already why I think you are wrong.

No, you didn't. You said some nonsense that was easily refutable.

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And your explanation is sorely lacking. I do lose "something". I'd lose out on those 2 points on the tree. The game is fine where it is in this regard.

You are already losing out on them by them NOT BEING THERE RIGHT NOW. Holy cow, can you not do a simple diff?

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You just can't seem to grasp the concept that someone doesn't agree with you.

Oh, I get it all right. It happens all the time. There are tons of people like you with no qualifications who are unswayed by reason.


And sometimes, rarely, someone disagrees with me who has an actual clue and a reasonable basis for why. And when that happens, I change my position, unlike Mr. "Nothing you can say will change my mind."

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Have fun living with that "I am always right" schtick. I am sure it'll take you places.

I never said "I'm always right". I said if you think I'm wrong, you should actually back that up with some reason, not just spit and nonsense.

And being right *has* gotten me pretty far in my career. Refusing to listen to naysayers who can't back up their inertia is a necessary part of design. If you had actually posted something of value, I'd have considered it. But as demonstrated above, you can't even think through what you're trying to say.

Let's make it clearer for the hard of thinking:

1) Right now, there are 117 points on the atlas. You max out at that.

2) Suggested change would have 119 points on the atlas. If you choose not to take the last two I just added, you are in the same boat as you are in right now. It costs you nothing.

It's mind boggling that you can't grasp that simple fact, or that *your feedback is unwelcome and you should take it elsewhere* because you're unable to grasp simple concepts like this.

Whatever.

While this has been an amusing diversion, I have other things to attend to like killing Elder and Shaper and doing something more interesting and stimulating

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Uber atziri is already connected to a point through The Feared

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But anyway, 2 more points would hardly many any real difference, and since pretty much no special instances outside maven-related ones gives atlas points, why whould those be any different? The current amount of points is solid enough to force to make choices while also not being overly restrictive

Atziry does need some way to make the enconter more worthwile, but just adding atlas points to make her a kill once and forget kinda thing? Nty, not needed

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But anyway, 2 more points would hardly many any real difference, and since pretty much no special instances outside maven-related ones gives atlas points, why whould those be any different?

Already addressed. Read the thread. We can add points for Simulacrum, HOGM, Vinktar, etc. as well.

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Atziry does need some way to make the enconter more worthwile, but just adding atlas points to make her a kill once and forget kinda thing? Nty, not needed

It would be an incentive for the casual/mid player who can hit endgame. Anyone can kill Atziri if they can do T15 maps with a little practice. Why not give them an incentive to try it instead of the current advice from all the experienced players of "Don't bother".

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arknath wrote:

Uber atziri is already connected to a point through The Feared

So is Shaper and Elder. Do they not give a point when you beat them? (I'm just getting going this league, been a bit busy.)

Feared is an entire other level above and beyond dealing with any of those bosses alone. It's worth a point on its own even if every boss in it already gave a point.

You see, folks, THIS is the problem I have with people who haven't done game design commenting on design suggestions for the devs. You haven't thought through your objections, you just say the first thing that comes to mind with zero analysis.

And "It's fine now" isn't a good enough reason not to consider an improvement.

I don't disagree with the suggestion on the surface but if we start including things like Simulacrum (Pale Court is gone btw) I see a slippery slope with breachstones, endgame labs, etc. At some point, it is possible that the additional points is large enough that there's no longer a need for decisions and respeccing on the atlas tree. In other words, there are so many possible points that everyone would end up with the same atlas.

The atlas tree is new enough I can't speak to whether this unbalance would occur. But I disagree with the people who say Levels 96-100 don't make a character much stronger. I spend a lot of time building characters and I'm ALWAYS starved for points. If you gave me another 20 on top of what we had, I could make good impactful use of them in any build I play. My personal opinion is that anyone who thinks points beyond like 92 or so don't really impact the character simply can't build a good tree. That said, I'm not saying they are wrong to hold their beliefs.

To make a poor analogy, I could argue that the endgame labs should give you a 9th and 10th ascendancy point. But that undoubtedly is massive power creep. While each individual additional point on the atlas tree is certainly not nearly as strong as an ascendancy point, if the slippery slope is long enough, we could eventually have power creep on that tree in the same magnitude.

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Arrataz wrote:

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But anyway, 2 more points would hardly many any real difference, and since pretty much no special instances outside maven-related ones gives atlas points, why whould those be any different?

Already addressed. Read the thread. We can add points for Simulacrum, HOGM, Vinktar, etc. as well.

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Atziry does need some way to make the enconter more worthwile, but just adding atlas points to make her a kill once and forget kinda thing? Nty, not needed

It would be an incentive for the casual/mid player who can hit endgame. Anyone can kill Atziri if they can do T15 maps with a little practice. Why not give them an incentive to try it instead of the current advice from all the experienced players of "Don't bother".

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arknath wrote:

Uber atziri is already connected to a point through The Feared

So is Shaper and Elder. Do they not give a point when you beat them? (I'm just getting going this league, been a bit busy.)

Feared is an entire other level above and beyond dealing with any of those bosses alone. It's worth a point on its own even if every boss in it already gave a point.

You see, folks, THIS is the problem I have with people who haven't done game design commenting on design suggestions for the devs. You haven't thought through your objections, you just say the first thing that comes to mind with zero analysis.

And "It's fine now" isn't a good enough reason not to consider an improvement.

So... basically give points for every little content?
Thats a big nono, it would destroy the need to make choices

If you were so smart as you claim, you would see that giving too many points would be terrible to the game, you know...

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To make a poor analogy, I could argue that the endgame labs should give you a 9th and 10th ascendancy point.

Very poor, since they already give the 5th and the 6th. Completely unlike what I'm talking about. You're also talking about a 33% increase in power, I'm talking about a 2%.

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If you were so smart as you claim, you would see that giving too many points would be terrible to the game, you know..

I *am* as smart as I claim, and as experienced too. Even the expanded version would give about 10 points more, a 10% increase. The size of the tree we have right now could accommodate at least 20 more without people seeing a massive power shift. As it is, the folks who are rolling in currency can just shift the tree to whatever they're farming at the moment and not notice the loss of the nodes they dropped.

You see, *I have* done the deep analysis on how this would affect things, and you have not. I would have to write a book chapter to include all the things you clearly don't understand.

So, let's say it once more for the folks who don't get it yet: If you're not a game designer with some experience, your opinion is pretty worthless on game design. Since none of you are (as you insist on demonstrating), I don't care about your opinion.