Is lowering numbers really less lazy than increasing numbers?

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Orbaal wrote:

The more stuff they do change, the harder its going to be to figure out why specific things didnt work out the way they were hoping/expecting it to work out.

I'd agree with you if you weren't talking about GGG whose prior history has taught me they won't take this approach.

They are spaghetti throwers, they should have thrown more spaghetti it increases their chance of success. Also some elements needed reducing regardless of player power problems, I don't think its contentious to say that the Maven grind is a little oppressive.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

I'd agree with you if you weren't talking about GGG whose prior history has taught me they won't take this approach.

They are spaghetti throwers, they should have thrown more spaghetti it increases their chance of success. Also some elements needed reducing regardless of player power problems, I don't think its contentious to say that the Maven grind is a little oppressive.

Dunno, I agree partially with the first paragraph but not entirely, simply because we never had a massive rebalancing anywhere near close to this.
So I dont think there is a history to go by.

On Maven we are agreed and I think Chris said something like this needs to be looked at - which ofc doesnt mean its going to be reworked anytime soon.
It might happen tho.

The spaghetti part I just cant agree with. Thats just gonna end up in a giant clusterfuck if they truly are trying to slow everything down.
You have to start somewhere and establish a new baseline, then rebalance everything else around this baseline.
Rather then changing everything at once, hoping it works out which ofc it wont and then not knowing what caused it.


This baseline can only be the playerpower, what else would it be?
And they started there. I dont agree with the way they did it and would have liked a more nuanced approach, but to quote you: We are talking about GGG here ;)
So that was never in the cards, especially if you take their production cycle into account as well.

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Orbaal wrote:

This baseline can only be the playerpower, what else would it be?

Encounters. When they targeted player power first what the ended up doing is forcing the game to be faster because the core gameplay doesn't support the type of game they want. They should have made it be reasonable to play the way they want then start trying to force players the play that way.

1. They had to lower our power because no matter how you want to twist it fkn frost blink totems on 20 ex budget should not be able to kill the hardest boss in game, no if or buts, just no.
2. They lowered the gap between pure dmg and dmg/utility support gems so you dont have such oportunity cost.
3. By lowering our power they keep old content kinda relevant and they dont have to stockpile harder and harder encounters on top of each other. PoE already suffers from content bloat.
4. Its just the first wave of rebalancing, they had to start somewhere. You cant fix years of neglect in 1 patch.
5. If you say nothing is playable besides meta then sorry thats bullshit. If you have ever done red map with enfeeble you know thats a lie. Thats what it roughly is. Hell my glad this league can clear t15. Granted its SST but it has like no dmg yet.
6. You cant say game became slow because thats a fkn lie and you know it. You can run 3 quicksilvers with 100% movespeed and have it permanently. The problem is either in your head or behind a keyboard.
7. Im filthy casual and i have no problem doing red maps. Stop spreading missinformation how this patch is only for 0.001% of players.
8. Crying about build diversity while playing 2 or 3 characters whole league is just lame. Also you had no problem with it when half the server played BB or cyclone. When there is 15% players playing like 4 different itterations of SST its suddenly unacceptable and build diversity is dead....

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j33bus wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

This baseline can only be the playerpower, what else would it be?

Encounters. When they targeted player power first what the ended up doing is forcing the game to be faster because the core gameplay doesn't support the type of game they want. They should have made it be reasonable to play the way they want then start trying to force players the play that way.

Only if you assume all encounters have to be doable.
I dont think thats the premise nor should it be. Its fine if players/builds cant do everything they want to do. There are always builds that can do a specific encounter but fail others and thats ok.

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Orbaal wrote:

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j33bus wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

This baseline can only be the playerpower, what else would it be?

Encounters. When they targeted player power first what the ended up doing is forcing the game to be faster because the core gameplay doesn't support the type of game they want. They should have made it be reasonable to play the way they want then start trying to force players the play that way.

Only if you assume all encounters have to be doable.
I dont think thats the premise nor should it be. Its fine if players/builds cant do everything they want to do. There are always builds that can do a specific encounter but fail others and thats ok.

Sure okay, but I'm talking about basic mapping encounters. Also of course if they don't want players to run around like an idiot they should stop making encounters that tell players to play that way, which they do constantly.

The core of the game doesn't play slower and it doesn't play like it's reasonable to react to threats. Monsters are too fast, damage is too spikey and frankly the visuals are too nonsense. If they want players to play a certain way step one is to stop punishing them for playing that way. This is why what they did severely hurt build diversity and pushed players to do more speed clearing because playing the game the way they want is unreasonable.

You cannot say you want the game to be slower and punish people for playing slower it's silly. Encounters first then players if you can't do both at once. The other way around clearly and obviously doesn't work.

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j33bus wrote:

Sure okay, but I'm talking about basic mapping encounters. Also of course if they don't want players to run around like an idiot they should stop making encounters that tell players to play that way, which they do constantly.

Hmmm what would change then?

When it comes to movespeed I dont feel slower at all. I ditched quicksilver flasks and instead Im leap slamming or whirling around just as fast as before.
Dmg changes are only noticable when Im fighting pretty tanky dudes. Other than that trash still just drops dead.

If you are referring to maps with insane mods, fully juiced up and then running into trouble, yeah ok I get that but thats not basic mapping or is it?

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kuciol wrote:

1. They had to lower our power because no matter how you want to twist it fkn frost blink totems on 20 ex budget should not be able to kill the hardest boss in game, no if or buts, just no.

Out of interest why? Frost blink can double hit, decent base damage and effectiveness as a result i've played it as a successful ignite prolif build in the past though not up to Maven standards.

Its not the worst skill in the game damage wise far from it especially once you assign it to totems which reduces many of the drawbacks.

Really i'm kidding I get the overall point just felt like pointing out that thinking frostblink is super trash is fuzzy thinking.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Out of interest why? Frost blink can double hit, decent base damage and effectiveness as a result i've played it as a successful ignite prolif build in the past though not up to Maven standards.

Its not the worst skill in the game damage wise far from it especially once you assign it to totems which reduces many of the drawbacks.

Really i'm kidding I get the overall point just felt like pointing out that thinking frostblink is super trash is fuzzy thinking.

Because its movement skill designed to be just that. Making something like this work should not be just mild investment. We are talking about hardest boss in game here. Mirror tier gear? Fine, it should let you pull off such bs but it wasnt the case. It just shows how out of hand power creep got.

nobody uses frostblink as a movement skill anyway, if it was designed for that it wouldn't do 1600-2400 cold with 280% effectiveness if positioned correctly.

However flame dash, leap slam, shield charge were also usable as boss skills I can't speak for whirling blades I think that ones a little bit too gimped.

Point is player power needed to be reduced, but not because someone actually went out of the box and played an unpopular but actually numerically fine skill. Chain hook is 10x worse as a skill use that as your example instead lmao