Expedition's damage immunity should be removed!!!

just dont blow up em if cant/wont deal with it

"

FutureFear wrote:

If you're "zooming" through maps with a bow build, and quickly place your explosives, without paying too much attention and just focus on as many chests, monsters, and bonuses

I mean... you're trying to argue that your refusal to pay attention is a reason to remove mechanics... seriously?

Absolutely, if you are being too lazy and greedy, rushing everything... you deserve to be punished. A mistake implies an effort on your part, which you just admitted doesn't exist.

Oke since most of you guys don't understand the issue, let me explain:


I do understand It's my choice whether or not I place my explosives on an immune node.
HOWEVER, it is not always clear whether or not a node is highlighted or not, simply because the green overlay is quite hard to see (sometimes) depending on the map you're playing.

In the (rare) case you do accidentally place an explosive too close to the immunity you can't handle, you are basically f*cked. You can't kill the monsters, you don't get rewards for your time/effort invested AND it could block your way forward to complete the map or even the logbook.

Any mechanic that is significantly blocking your gameplay = bad game design. Once unlocked there isn't (always) a workaround to kill them. I can't suddenly make a character that can handle it, or throw my build around just to kill some immune monsters... and deal enough damage to actually kill them... Sure on a trade league, it isn't a big issue, you can invite someone and deal with it.
But what on SFF? How will you deal with it there? Isn't it hard enough you can't trade there or have others players join you? No apparently also the game has to block your content and time invested to get nothing in return. You actually even lost more than you get in return.

My opinion is:

It destroys the fun of the game if you happen to misplace an explosive. Which btw can happen to anyone and everyone...
Is it dumb? yeah sure it's my mistake... but if I make a mistake in a freaking game should I be punished and lose my map, rewards, and ultimately the fun of playing? Should a game mechanic prevent me from moving forward in the game?

I can understand they want to make the game harder, but making unkillable enemies isn't a good game design to achieve that. If anything it destroys build diversity even more, should I build a character able to deal every type of damage and deal no damage at all?
IT isn't even possible in the current state of the game to make such builds.

Also, the issue with conversion is here a problem. I can convert from physical to elemental and/or chaos, but you can't convert chaos or elements to physical... It's a one-way road.
So depending on your build choice you're even more f*cked if you accidentally opened an immune node you can't handle. Because for a chaos build there just isn't any workaround available.

So yeah even though I made the mistake of unlocking it, it still creates the issue it blocks my path forward and my game progress. I lose more than I gained from my time invested. Games that don't value and reward the time and effort their players invest often die quickly because it's no fun to play them. They aren't worth investing your time playing them, simply because you'll get nothing/blocked in return. It's downright annoying it can happen, especially by small placement mistakes, where 2 pixels matter on a 49-inch screen with a 4K resolution.

That killing a monster can be challenging I can understand, I even would like that and will strive to create a build to overcome that challenge.
But the current state of the game and how Expedition works doesn't allow me to do that, because NOTHING works against immunity. I can't pick a node on the tree that says "you can kill immune monsters."

If I could get 3 out 5 immunities I wouldn't be surprised I can get all 5 on a map too. This would mean NO ONE could kill those monsters... and that creates a ton more issues.

Sure accidentally unlocking those 5 immunities isn't likely to happen, but the fact it is possible, even though astronomically slim is an issue.

If their lack of creativity to make a game harder is to grab towards immunity I'm afraid we'll soon run through immune damage maps too... or get an immune Maven and Sirus fight...?

Is that the game you want to play? Is that still good game design?



My solution:

Don't make them immune, just super tanky... make them an actual challenge to kill and thus killable (no matter your damage type).

The detonations sometimes bug out and hit the immunity box even though they were never marked with green circles. It happens if theyre too close to your detonation locations.

It's kind of annoying because in red maps, the expedition layout gets more complex and a lot of times you sort of have to thread the needle with your placements.

Definitely remove ALL the artificial damage mitigation.
Having a mob constantly go 100% immune on 3/4 hp to then regene 1000000000000000000000000000000000 mill, is just not fun in any ways.

I kinda stopped running logbooks due to this, which sucks. But complete mob immortality sucks even more.

If I understand correctly, you want these particular immunities removed because you don't want to stop and look what you're doing.

I do agree that to help prevent accidental detonation it could be made more visible what is in the radius of the explosion, but 'remove immunities because I accidentally set them off' is probably not as good a solution as 'make it less easy to accidentally set off immunities'. The immune tags are there to force you to slow down and engage, that isn't an accident.

comparing random immune mobs spawning with this issue is not a fair comparison, or from the perspective of game design not remotely the same thing.

I'm fine with it. All immunities are written in a different color, so you should at least take a closer look if you notice some yellow text. I would agree on a different color depending on element, but that's, at least for me, just a QoL thing.

Since you mentioned SSF: that's a game mode added just because of big community requests, fully optional and with no adjustments compared to the normal leagues. If you start to play SSF, you agree with those restrictions, knowing that there's no compensation for this. So stating "It's even worse for SSF" sounds, at least for me, like a very cheap way of supporting your request.

This may sound rude now, but this is PoE and not Hello Kitty Online. You are supposed to get punished for making bad decisions and/or stupid mistakes. If you ruin a map by this? Well, grumble for a monent and then move on to the next one. Usually this doesn't mean the end of the world. If it does (because you're doing a 80% delirious T19 map and therefore lose alot of currency), well.. especially then you should have spend CLOSE attention to what you're doing in order to protect your investment.

"

brushmonkey wrote:

If I understand correctly, you want these particular immunities removed because you don't want to stop and look what you're doing.

I do agree that to help prevent accidental detonation it could be made more visible what is in the radius of the explosion, but 'remove immunities because I accidentally set them off' is probably not as good a solution as 'make it less easy to accidentally set off immunities'. The immune tags are there to force you to slow down and engage, that isn't an accident.

comparing random immune mobs spawning with this issue is not a fair comparison, or from the perspective of game design not remotely the same thing.

Let's put things in perspective:

Path of Exile comes from a quite fast past period and suddenly they want to slow us down. I understand that I really do.

I question whether immunities is the way to do so. I honestly don't think it's healthy for the game to do that. Even in the current state, they are used, it is already proven that it can block content.

From my point of view, game mechanics that block content and progression in any way aren't good game mechanics. They can be hard and challenging, but an immunity makes it impossible to get past them, in the current state of the game. It doesn't provide a healthy challange, like a boss fight, or harder fights, it's an impossible fight, it's gone, it's lost... and that ain't right.

It doesn't provide healthy gameplay, it is downright frustrating if you happen to unlock a node by accident.
Yes, I understand it's my own mistake of not paying attention, but we are human not some godlike perfect creature... mistakes happen and it's bad enough we have to deal with them in life, we don't need more in games...

Immunity is an ingredient that will quickly "kill" a game. Look at the D2 numbers and immunities...

I don't ask to make it easy, I ask to provide us with the means so they can be killed, no matter the kind of build you have. They can be harder for some, but providing us with really strong defenses instead of immunities seems more inline in the Path of Exile universe.
It would actually give players a challenge to overcome, it could have been one of the challenges even...

"

Judaspriester wrote:

I'm fine with it. All immunities are written in a different color, so you should at least take a closer look if you notice some yellow text. I would agree on a different color depending on element, but that's, at least for me, just a QoL thing.

Since you mentioned SSF: that's a game mode added just because of big community requests, fully optional and with no adjustments compared to the normal leagues. If you start to play SSF, you agree with those restrictions, knowing that there's no compensation for this. So stating "It's even worse for SSF" sounds, at least for me, like a very cheap way of supporting your request.

This may sound rude now, but this is PoE and not Hello Kitty Online. You are supposed to get punished for making bad decisions and/or stupid mistakes. If you ruin a map by this? Well, grumble for a monent and then move on to the next one. Usually this doesn't mean the end of the world. If it does (because you're doing a 80% delirious T19 map and therefore lose alot of currency), well.. especially then you should have spend CLOSE attention to what you're doing in order to protect your investment.

Until you actually brick a T19 Delerium map or logbook I guess people won't really understand the point I'm trying to make.

Yes, I could start a new map, but what of that map is a guardian or is that T19 Delerium map... would that be fun to happen to you?
Is that how the game should reward you for your time, by throwing your hard-earned maps and investment out the window because you happen to misplace an explosive or just misread some text?
Are you that "god-like" you don't happen to make mistakes?
Do you never misread something?

I understand punishment, but immunity is not punishment it's impossible. Not killable enemies in a game where killing is the core of the game... and the main source of rewards doesn't feel right.

As for SSF, I'm well aware it was added on request, but that doesn't mean GGG doesn't have the responsibility to balance it, it still is part of their game. By adding it they accepted the responsibility to make the game playable in all game modes including SSF.

Read the above to hopefully understand my point of view. :)

Don't get me wrong. I also already made my mistakes and cursed the game, myself and everyone around heavily for that. But afterwards I alweays peacified myself and decided to go on.

For the Immunities, unless you're playing SSF, you can always ask someone else for help, unless you really managed to make them immune to everything. So it would require a multitude of mistakes in order to brick a map. Besides that, unless your build contains something like Avatar of Fire which prevents you from doing any damage except 1 specific damage type, there is also always the option to switch to another skill caried in your second weaponset in order to work around this problem. This will most likely mean some extra effort and time, but if you're afraid of bricking your map or something like that, this is a possible way out (especially for SSF).

In general, if we would run into immune monsters in the wild this season, like we did in D2, I would absolutly agree for you, that this has to go again. But since we have to actively apply immunities to a specific group of mobs, that's, at least for me, a different thing. You are able to avoid problems and if they are happening, there are still options to get yourself out of that shitty situation, unless you really managed to get the (at least for my current state of information) academic case where the mobs are immune to everything.

With this being said, yes i agree with you that immunities aren't the best way from a game developing point of view, but, at least in the current implementation, they are far from gamebreaking.

For SSF: GGG explicitly stated, as they added the game mode, that it will be 100% the same game, except the given restrictions. So if they would have agreed to balance SSF different and did a bad job there, I would fully agree with you that they would have to make this better. But since there is no extra balance for SSF and this is (or at least should be) a known fact, I don't think that they should start with doing this now. If they would do that, most likely 2 things would happen: a) one group of players would rage because GGG has touched SSF and therefore "broke" their promise that SSF gets no extra balance and b) another group of players would use this change as argument for demanding even more changes to SSF. So touching anything here has the potential to end up as pandora's box.

"

Judaspriester wrote:

Don't get me wrong. I also already made my mistakes and cursed the game, myself and everyone around heavily for that. But afterwards I alweays peacified myself and decided to go on.

For the Immunities, unless you're playing SSF, you can always ask someone else for help, unless you really managed to make them immune to everything. So it would require a multitude of mistakes in order to brick a map. Besides that, unless your build contains something like Avatar of Fire which prevents you from doing any damage except 1 specific damage type, there is also always the option to switch to another skill caried in your second weaponset in order to work around this problem. This will most likely mean some extra effort and time, but if you're afraid of bricking your map or something like that, this is a possible way out (especially for SSF).

In general, if we would run into immune monsters in the wild this season, like we did in D2, I would absolutly agree for you, that this has to go again. But since we have to actively apply immunities to a specific group of mobs, that's, at least for me, a different thing. You are able to avoid problems and if they are happening, there are still options to get yourself out of that shitty situation, unless you really managed to get the (at least for my current state of information) academic case where the mobs are immune to everything.

With this being said, yes i agree with you that immunities aren't the best way from a game developing point of view, but, at least in the current implementation, they are far from gamebreaking.

For SSF: GGG explicitly stated, as they added the game mode, that it will be 100% the same game, except the given restrictions. So if they would have agreed to balance SSF different and did a bad job there, I would fully agree with you that they would have to make this better. But since there is no extra balance for SSF and this is (or at least should be) a known fact, I don't think that they should start with doing this now. If they would do that, most likely 2 things would happen: a) one group of players would rage because GGG has touched SSF and therefore "broke" their promise that SSF gets no extra balance and b) another group of players would use this change as argument for demanding even more changes to SSF. So touching anything here has the potential to end up as pandora's box.

I love expedition in general and understand the nerfs GGG did and their purpose... I only hope other game mechanics also get slowed down, and we get more chase items or challenges. Sadly we didn't get that and the game currently is in a state where we're faced with fast gameplay in many aspects of the game and the other hand their new content is the reverse and asks to slow down... It doesn't work well together.

I'm afraid they might use immunities more in the future, that's why I'm raising my voice that it shouldn't be in the game; even in its current form...

As mentioned, swapping gems and/or gear isn't always possible for some builds, again I look at chaos and poison builds as a good example.
Conversion of damage is a one-way road, so only a physical could potentially convert to all other damage types.. but it gets more limited each time.

Also, note if you're playing a DOT build, conversion just doesn't apply at all... I happen to be playing a bleed build... so any conversion or swap to any other element or chaos just doesn't do anything... it deals no too little damage... because bleed damage can't be converted - it's always physical.

Fun fact, I occasionally play together with a friend and he picked a chaos build... So pick a physical and chaos immune and neither of us can do anything against it.

Inviting third-party players doesn't always go well, and they might just take off with all the loot...

I don't play SSF myself (I did try though) but I am concerned that immunities create several more problems in that game mode, compared to trade leagues. Even though it was added on request and with certain conditions and promises, doesn't mean they should make it impossible for the players that do play SSF. It would be easier to get rid of SSF altogether if they do so...

I'm not saying only change SSF, I'm asking to rethink the immunity for the entire game in every game mode. I'm just pointing out reasons WHY it's bad in my opinion. Hence why I posted this in the feedback section.

Even though they aren't especially game-breaking if you just avoid them, they can become game-breaking and progress blocking if you didn't avoid them. As mentioned before, some builds are affected more than others, so it influences the builds that are viable and forces us to play certain builds or to avoid some builds in this league because of it. Thus it isn't good for build diversity...
There is a reason minion builds are meta again... because they can easily swap in damage type with little investment... different specters, some gems swaps, and you're good to go. Even to a point, they can do with 1 pair of gloves to convert all minion damage to anything they like/want.

I've played minion builds since legion league... it was time for a change...