Resistance needs to be converted to resistance rating

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gh0un wrote:

It also ensures that there is always better resistance gear to pick up.
Currently you can easily get maxed out on all resistances in normal difficulty.

This is good game design.
Not some fixed penalty bullshit from 10 years ago.

Or they could just put into clear numbers what it is you are actually wanting them to do.

Instead of making 25% available at low level, make 5% available. Now you can still improve you gear. There's nothing that a rating system does other than make it hard for the player to understand how that's actually useful.

You brought up armor (someone did, who doesn't really matter). There's nothing good about armor, other than "higher is better". Well that's obvious, because higher is better for EVERYTHING in the game.

But it wouldn't be any worse if pieces of armor said "5% physical reduction".

All a rating system does is turn a nice clean "5% reduction" to "532 rating". It makes it harder to actually know what it does.

That doesn't make it a good design.

Having rating points decay as you get higher levels makes no sense at all to a player. Why if I am more powerful (which is what gaining a level implies), do I suddenly have less of a chance to crit?

It makes no sense. I'm fighting a level 5 monster. I have a 10% chance to crit. I level up. I'm still fighting a level 5 monster, and now I only have a 9% chance to crit.

That makes NO SENSE at all to a player. It's a TERRIBLE design from a player's perspective.

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gh0un wrote:

That is the purpose of a rating system.
You can make challenging encounters early on in the game, that encourages you to pick your equip purposefully, at the same time it doesnt screw over late game.

It also ensures that there is always better resistance gear to pick up.
Currently you can easily get maxed out on all resistances in normal difficulty.

Pretty much this, the tl:dr section of this topic.

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Having rating points decay as you get higher levels makes no sense at all to a player. Why if I am more powerful (which is what gaining a level implies), do I suddenly have less of a chance to crit?

Thats not the implication of a rating system.
The implication of a rating system is: if your opponents level increases, you need more of a stat to have the same effect on those monsters.

Thats exactly how armor works.
If you have 100 armor, and it grants 20% physical reduction against level 10 monsters, it wont grant 20% reduction against level 11 monsters.

You wont see how much it actually grants, until you become level 11, because at that point your sheet will tell you how much 100 armor is worth against level 11 monsters.
The sheet only shows you how much reduction you have against monsters of the same level.

Your armor doesnt get weaker if you level up.
You never had 20% reduction against level 11 monsters in the first place.
The only thing that happens is that you are able to see how much those 100 armor help you against level 11 monsters.

The same would apply to resistances.

"

Instead of making 25% available at low level, make 5% available. Now you can still improve you gear.

That approach has one big problem however.
If you make only 5% reduction available, then you cant actually make an enemy challenging for the following reason:

If merveil deals 100 cold damage, and only 5% reduction is available at that point, this means that you can only reduce that damage to 95.

You cant make the enemy hard for the one that doesnt have that reduction without making it hard for the one that does have that reduction, because 5 life isnt going to make a difference if you only have an health pool of 150.
Both players will be 2 shotted.

At the same time, if you make her so hard that a character without resis doesnt stand a chance, you make it as hard for the one that does get resistance.

Thats the fucking whole point of a rating system.
If that 5%, instead were 5 rating, that translates to 75% resistance at that level, then you can actually make merveil deal tremendous amounts of damage to the one that doesnt have any resistance.

Someone that does prepare for her with that 5 rating, will receive a quarter of that damage, making her a joke.

Thats why a rating system gives the developer a lot more control over balance in the game.

I can guarantee you with 100% certainty, that the reason why they have so much problems balancing merveil in act 1 while making her challenging, is due to resistance NOT being a rating.

They try to make her challenging, so they have to increase her damage output by great amounts, but if they increase her damage by great amounts, they will also have to provide the means to protect one self against that kind of damage.

If they provide you with such huge amounts of resistance so early in the game, then you are basically immediately maxed on resistances, meaning that they cant actually make later encounters challenging anymore.

This is an easy to understand concept, and if you think about it, you will see why this is exactly the reason why they have so much trouble balancing merveil while making her challenging.

Thats also the reason why so many people are reporting that cruel, ruthless and merciless are actually easier than normal.
You cant make it any harder if you are already maxed on resistances.

If there was a resistance rating instead, they can provide you with the necessary protection against merveil early in the game, without giving you maxed resistances against later enemies aswell, because that rating is going to be worthless later on.

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gh0un wrote:

"

Having rating points decay as you get higher levels makes no sense at all to a player. Why if I am more powerful (which is what gaining a level implies), do I suddenly have less of a chance to crit?

Thats not the implication of a rating system.
The implication of a rating system is: if your opponents level increases, you need more of a stat to have the same effect on those monsters.

That IS the implication of a rating system if you look at how WoW's rating system works. That's exactly what happens. As you gain levels, your gear gets worse for you. You get less out of the same amount of crit (or any stat that uses a rating system) then you just did five minutes ago when you were a lower level.

Now maybe you meant YOUR rating system wouldn't do that, but that's exacly what WOW's rating system does.

"

gh0un wrote:

Thats exactly how armor works.
If you have 100 armor, and it grants 20% physical reduction against level 10 monsters, it wont grant 20% reduction against level 11 monsters.

That's one way to do it, but you don't know for sure that level actually has anything to do with how armor works. It could just as easily flat out do X% damage reduction regardless of level, and since I haven't seen them actually post the forumlae, it's all guess work.

Damage could just as well be this:

damage = monster.dice() * moster.level()
damage = damage * player.armor()

There. Level just gives the monster a multiplier for damage, and it's then reduced by your armor.

You don't actually KNOW what it does, and there's nothing anywhere that says your "rating system" is going to be some magical cure.

You still never address the point I've made about flat percentages being better for the player than a rating system, because it's very easy to understand what benefit a flat percentage gives me, compared to completely arbitrary "rating numbers".

"

gh0un wrote:

"

Instead of making 25% available at low level, make 5% available. Now you can still improve you gear.

That approach has one big problem however.
If you make only 5% reduction available, then you cant actually make an enemy challenging for the following reason:

If merveil deals 100 cold damage, and only 5% reduction is available at that point, this means that you can only reduce that damage to 95.

You cant make the enemy hard for the one that doesnt have that reduction without making it hard for the one that does have that reduction, because 5 life isnt going to make a difference if you only have an health pool of 150.
Both players will be 2 shotted.

At the same time, if you make her so hard that a character without resis doesnt stand a chance, you make it as hard for the one that does get resistance.

Thats the fucking whole point of a rating system.
If that 5%, instead were 5 rating, that translates to 75% resistance at that level, then you can actually make merveil deal tremendous amounts of damage to the one that doesnt have any resistance.

Someone that does prepare for her with that 5 rating, will receive a quarter of that damage, making her a joke.

Thats why a rating system gives the developer a lot more control over balance in the game.

I can guarantee you with 100% certainty, that the reason why they have so much problems balancing merveil in act 1 while making her challenging, is due to resistance NOT being a rating.

They try to make her challenging, so they have to increase her damage output by great amounts, but if they increase her damage by great amounts, they will also have to provide the means to protect one self against that kind of damage.

If they provide you with such huge amounts of resistance so early in the game, then you are basically immediately maxed on resistances, meaning that they cant actually make later encounters challenging anymore.

This is an easy to understand concept, and if you think about it, you will see why this is exactly the reason why they have so much trouble balancing merveil while making her challenging.

I have honestly no idea what you are advocating here. You are whining about people building resist sets, but you're advocating making it hard for people who don't have resist sets.

I have no idea what you are actually trying to say you want out of that boss fight. You're mad that people got a bunch of resist to fight a boss that is all about you getting a specific type of gear to counter it.

It makes no sense. And I have no idea how you think a rating system helps this out at all.

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notevenhere wrote:

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gh0un wrote:

"

Having rating points decay as you get higher levels makes no sense at all to a player. Why if I am more powerful (which is what gaining a level implies), do I suddenly have less of a chance to crit?

Thats not the implication of a rating system.
The implication of a rating system is: if your opponents level increases, you need more of a stat to have the same effect on those monsters.

That IS the implication of a rating system if you look at how WoW's rating system works. That's exactly what happens. As you gain levels, your gear gets worse for you. You get less out of the same amount of crit (or any stat that uses a rating system) then you just did five minutes ago when you were a lower level.

Now maybe you meant YOUR rating system wouldn't do that, but that's exacly what WOW's rating system does.

"

gh0un wrote:

Thats exactly how armor works.
If you have 100 armor, and it grants 20% physical reduction against level 10 monsters, it wont grant 20% reduction against level 11 monsters.

That's one way to do it, but you don't know for sure that level actually has anything to do with how armor works. It could just as easily flat out do X% damage reduction regardless of level, and since I haven't seen them actually post the forumlae, it's all guess work.

Damage could just as well be this:

damage = monster.dice() * moster.level()
damage = damage * player.armor()

There. Level just gives the monster a multiplier for damage, and it's then reduced by your armor.

You don't actually KNOW what it does, and there's nothing anywhere that says your "rating system" is going to be some magical cure.

You still never address the point I've made about flat percentages being better for the player than a rating system, because it's very easy to understand what benefit a flat percentage gives me, compared to completely arbitrary "rating numbers".

"

gh0un wrote:

"

Instead of making 25% available at low level, make 5% available. Now you can still improve you gear.

That approach has one big problem however.
If you make only 5% reduction available, then you cant actually make an enemy challenging for the following reason:

If merveil deals 100 cold damage, and only 5% reduction is available at that point, this means that you can only reduce that damage to 95.

You cant make the enemy hard for the one that doesnt have that reduction without making it hard for the one that does have that reduction, because 5 life isnt going to make a difference if you only have an health pool of 150.
Both players will be 2 shotted.

At the same time, if you make her so hard that a character without resis doesnt stand a chance, you make it as hard for the one that does get resistance.

Thats the fucking whole point of a rating system.
If that 5%, instead were 5 rating, that translates to 75% resistance at that level, then you can actually make merveil deal tremendous amounts of damage to the one that doesnt have any resistance.

Someone that does prepare for her with that 5 rating, will receive a quarter of that damage, making her a joke.

Thats why a rating system gives the developer a lot more control over balance in the game.

I can guarantee you with 100% certainty, that the reason why they have so much problems balancing merveil in act 1 while making her challenging, is due to resistance NOT being a rating.

They try to make her challenging, so they have to increase her damage output by great amounts, but if they increase her damage by great amounts, they will also have to provide the means to protect one self against that kind of damage.

If they provide you with such huge amounts of resistance so early in the game, then you are basically immediately maxed on resistances, meaning that they cant actually make later encounters challenging anymore.

This is an easy to understand concept, and if you think about it, you will see why this is exactly the reason why they have so much trouble balancing merveil while making her challenging.

I have honestly no idea what you are advocating here. You are whining about people building resist sets, but you're advocating making it hard for people who don't have resist sets.

I have no idea what you are actually trying to say you want out of that boss fight. You're mad that people got a bunch of resist to fight a boss that is all about you getting a specific type of gear to counter it.

It makes no sense. And I have no idea how you think a rating system helps this out at all.

You lack reading comnprehension.

He's saying that if you gate %resists by level then it makes balancing low levels a nightmare. Conversely if you DO NOT gate % resist by level then it presents the same problem.

Edit: also we have proof that armor works as a point system scaling to level. Check DR, level up, check DR. It goes down. So does evasion. I recommend just listing the "point values" of items as percentages next to the points. Boom everyone is happy.

Notevenhere, i wont quote the post since its too long and would just clutter.

Wows rating system works exactly as i described it, and exactly how all rating systems work.

They give you statistics depending on the enemy mobs level, its not really dependant on your own level.
What you see in the sheet is just tricking people that dont know how rating systems work.
Go read the FAQ for any of the games that use rating (including path of exile), or search the forums.


Armor is nothing other than a rating, its just not written down like that.


I know that you dont understand what i am trying to advocate, because you probably are really underage.
As autoct already said, you seriously lack reading comprehension.

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gh0un wrote:

Notevenhere, i wont quote the post since its too long and would just clutter.

Wows rating system works exactly as i described it, and exactly how all rating systems work.

They give you statistics depending on the enemy mobs level, not depending on your own level.
Go read the FAQ for any of the games that use rating (including path of exile), or search the forums.

That is the whole point of a rating system.

Armor is nothing other than a rating, its just not written down like that.


I know that you dont understand what i am trying to advocate, because you probably are really underage.
As autoct already said, you seriously lack reading comprehension.

They give you the statistics generally using your level as a reference point. But I always understood the %values to be static against all enemies regardless of their level.

Of course this is shown in WoW by the fact that bosses have different miss than normal mobs and require the same rating value to raise a single %. Unless they use an exponential miss rate by level the only way for that to work is for 1% rating to equal 1% rating regardless of enemy level.

The reduction of armor is in relation to the dmg dealed by the opponent and the level doesn't matter here.
1000armor are ~50% reduction to a 200dmg attack regardless if its achieved by a lvl 1 or lvl 99.

BTT
I agree that its wired to have low level items that can easy go to the cap but the resists don't stand alone.
There is allways a trade off in power due the loss of other mods.

I think the need to manage all elemental ratings too with gear makes balance really worse.

What about ...

- elemental passives
- 8% quest reward
- curses
- aura

???

Fixed rating or raw percentages like now?

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LadyDevimon wrote:

The reduction of armor is in relation to the dmg dealed by the opponent and the level doesn't matter here.
1000armor are ~50% reduction to a 200dmg attack regardless if its achieved by a lvl 1 or lvl 99.

In favor of resistance formulas using the same formula as armor formulas.

Also the character sheet lies, it presents false information to the player regarding your DR from armor now that I found the formulas.

"You have 23% DR assuming the enemy is doing a damage amount we think they should be doing. Good luck if they're doing twice that beacause you're screwed if they are"

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Autocthon wrote:

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gh0un wrote:

They give you statistics depending on the enemy mobs level, not depending on your own level.
Go read the FAQ for any of the games that use rating (including path of exile), or search the forums.

They give you the statistics generally using your level as a reference point. But I always understood the %values to be static against all enemies regardless of their level.

Of course this is shown in WoW by the fact that bosses have different miss than normal mobs and require the same rating value to raise a single %. Unless they use an exponential miss rate by level the only way for that to work is for 1% rating to equal 1% rating regardless of enemy level.

This is the entire problem with rating systems. You are guessing what your stats do compared to other monsters. That's my entire point: It's too confusing.

If I have X% fire resistance, I always know that it is X%. I don't have to wonder how that really is versus something a higher or lower level.

See how easy it is to understand? I have flat out X% regardless of what I'm fighting.