GGG at the Crossroads

"

stevich wrote:

Poe is already at a point of terminal power creep thats threatening to destroy the host.

Adding harvest to core was a big mistake.

I look on reddit and all you see far and wide is people demanding more power in shorter duration so they can quit the league sooner.

Of course i can't tell you what to enjoy but when i look at the speed people trash maps today zooming around like kids with adhd and hitting lvl 100 withing hours, i can tell you for sure it is not what i had envisioned for path of exile 9 years ago.

More, more, more and right now.

I see this general argument of power creep being thrown around a lot in regards to Harvest.

Let me posit a simple series of questions.

Has the game ever been generally balanced around all playstyles and skill gems?

Are the current top builds utilizing Harvest crafted gear much more than before?

Would it be easier to balance all of these factors if there were a general expectation on the level of gear?

"

kiadaw wrote:

"

kole wrote:

I mean I_NO was only wrong about one thing. The "but I have a family" thing won't become a meme, it has already been a meme for years, it's just that you see more of it now.

PoE was never really designed around players that have 8 jobs 2 wives 14 children & 3 babies on the way and can afford to play 20 minutes on weekends only, at it's core it's a grindny game that's simply impossible to tailor to suit these types of players, unless you massively water down content and make this a casual game, and I'm honestly glad that ggg is refraining from doing so.

The whole reason this game even picked up on a dedicated playerbase to begin with is because the hardcore aprg market went dry and suddenly PoE became the game.

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game, much more easier said than done, although instead of a decent summation as the other commenter pointed out, this whole post is "waah muh harvest" in disguise of a long & boring wall of text.

There is a sweet spot between too grindy & too casual, & PoE is over the chart in the grindy side. The only reason I am playing this far & welling to grind is because I am diehard person who wanted to beat all contents, & & shut the " have you beaten /do xzy." people.

But after this league, I am GG PoE, until not sure, maybe 6 months later or forever if a better ARG come along, & many good ARPG are coming within 1-2 years.

There are many moment when "playing" this game where I feel "blank" not sure what to do next. Oh, I am farming the same map I have farmed the last hour....

I can try push end bosses, but risk losing days of progress. It is super uncomforting the feeling you lose days of progress if you die, & I get it, some people like this trial of living on the edge, but that is why there is hardcore. I don't, I bet 90% or more POE players do not. This make the game not only unenjoyable but stressful.

This is why I decide to GG PoE after this elague. I have seen everything the game has to offer. No hard feeling, but the game is too grindy, stressful for me.

I will return to Diablo 3 & Last epoch for my ARPG needs until the big boys like D2R, D4 release. People here will go nuts when mentioning Diablo 3, but its a very enjoyable stress free game I can play with friends & its super fun to play wth friends, even randoms in public games.

Last EPoch is as satifactory, maybe even more so than PoE for theorycrafter, with the massive grind & frastation.



I think many PoE gamers are willing to jump ship if a decent competition comes along. POE has the advantage being the only live service arpg game allow constant updates. Even Zizaran, in his latest video said, D3 did not "died" (it wasn't dead) becusae it is casual, it "died" due to lack of content update, & the reason being not live service model.

How can they be good Arpgs if they arent out yet. And im not talking about that garbage LE and D3 lol. But eh your welcome to leave no one will miss you or even remember u left in the first place. Poe has to many players a couple hundred people leaving isnt gonna break the bank or kill the game, Hell most will play both anyways.

"

xPiranha wrote:

"

kiadaw wrote:

"

kole wrote:

I mean I_NO was only wrong about one thing. The "but I have a family" thing won't become a meme, it has already been a meme for years, it's just that you see more of it now.

PoE was never really designed around players that have 8 jobs 2 wives 14 children & 3 babies on the way and can afford to play 20 minutes on weekends only, at it's core it's a grindny game that's simply impossible to tailor to suit these types of players, unless you massively water down content and make this a casual game, and I'm honestly glad that ggg is refraining from doing so.

The whole reason this game even picked up on a dedicated playerbase to begin with is because the hardcore aprg market went dry and suddenly PoE became the game.

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game, much more easier said than done, although instead of a decent summation as the other commenter pointed out, this whole post is "waah muh harvest" in disguise of a long & boring wall of text.

There is a sweet spot between too grindy & too casual, & PoE is over the chart in the grindy side. The only reason I am playing this far & welling to grind is because I am diehard person who wanted to beat all contents, & & shut the " have you beaten /do xzy." people.

But after this league, I am GG PoE, until not sure, maybe 6 months later or forever if a better ARG come along, & many good ARPG are coming within 1-2 years.

There are many moment when "playing" this game where I feel "blank" not sure what to do next. Oh, I am farming the same map I have farmed the last hour....

I can try push end bosses, but risk losing days of progress. It is super uncomforting the feeling you lose days of progress if you die, & I get it, some people like this trial of living on the edge, but that is why there is hardcore. I don't, I bet 90% or more POE players do not. This make the game not only unenjoyable but stressful.

This is why I decide to GG PoE after this elague. I have seen everything the game has to offer. No hard feeling, but the game is too grindy, stressful for me.

I will return to Diablo 3 & Last epoch for my ARPG needs until the big boys like D2R, D4 release. People here will go nuts when mentioning Diablo 3, but its a very enjoyable stress free game I can play with friends & its super fun to play wth friends, even randoms in public games.

Last EPoch is as satifactory, maybe even more so than PoE for theorycrafter, with the massive grind & frastation.



I think many PoE gamers are willing to jump ship if a decent competition comes along. POE has the advantage being the only live service arpg game allow constant updates. Even Zizaran, in his latest video said, D3 did not "died" (it wasn't dead) becusae it is casual, it "died" due to lack of content update, & the reason being not live service model.

How can they be good Arpgs if they arent out yet. And im not talking about that garbage LE and D3 lol. But eh your welcome to leave no one will miss you or even remember u left in the first place. Poe has to many players a couple hundred people leaving isnt gonna break the bank or kill the game, Hell most will play both anyways.

Last Epoch is already a better game now in early access then PoE was at launch. Many people will not play a early access game. Once it officially launch, many will.
Calling other games garbage just show your fanboyism, & it blinds your rationality.

can say the same about you. But anywho good luck with that LE AND D3 lol your only hope is D4 and thats already dwindling.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

And it seems we're finally here. GGG from the development manifesto is taking the hardcore path.

I would respectfully disagree. Despite my disagreement with GGG's various balance decisions, including the latest round - the game overall is getting easier and easier to play. The pinnacle of the end game is more difficult to succeed at, requiring more time, more trading, more playing technique to complete.

That doesn't mean it is more challenging.

Read that again.

Follow meta formula X - play it long enough - and you will achieve end game.

The problem isn't that GGG isn't trying to make a challenging game - they are. The problem (as any good D&D GM will understand) is that GGG has been running Monty Hall scenarios and now has to over react in order to reign them back in.

Some of this is the inevitability of so many game mechanics and the open skill mandala. Players have become adept at finding the best combos for any given set of rules. I don't faulting GGG for trying to bring those back into balance.

Diminishing Returns would help GGG allow players to push a build, without letting builds get Ten million or a billion plus DPS.

The recent/upcoming crafting changes aren't bad because they try to bring some balance to the game. That's a good reason to make changes. GGG should revisit those changes because they ruin something for most players in order to prevent the very best crafts which can make the game too easy.

As a possible alternative solution - for some crafts, they could eliminate harvest crafts from generating T1 rolls.

No one seeking to make mirror gear would use a harvest craft. Players seeking to patch a hole in their build would still use Harvest crafts while they try to otherwise craft or gain the orbs to buy their dream gear.

GGG could open up a thread asking players for suggestions - or a poll on a few GGG options. As an example of something GGG did before - the XP penalty for dying used to be higher. GGG proposed dropping it all the way down to 8%. Players voted that was too generous and 10% was better.

This is a golden opportunity for GGG to take a negative public perception and turn it into a huge positive PR win.

"

xPiranha wrote:

can say the same about you. But anywho good luck with that LE AND D3 lol your only hope is D4 and thats already dwindling.

I play other games, I play PoE, I do not make fanboy remarks like other games suxs, that makes me a fanboy.

Logic

"

DalaiLama wrote:

"

Tsokushin wrote:

And it seems we're finally here. GGG from the development manifesto is taking the hardcore path.

I would respectfully disagree. Despite my disagreement with GGG's various balance decisions, including the latest round - the game overall is getting easier and easier to play. The pinnacle of the end game is more difficult to succeed at, requiring more time, more trading, more playing technique to complete.

That doesn't mean it is more challenging.

TIME is the biggest challenge for working adults with life responsibilites.

"

kiadaw wrote:

"

xPiranha wrote:

can say the same about you. But anywho good luck with that LE AND D3 lol your only hope is D4 and thats already dwindling.

I play other games, I play PoE, I do not make fanboy remarks like other games suxs, that makes me a fanboy.

Logic

lol ok bud.




































Oh yeh Rip Harvest. :P

So Baeclast was yesterday, I must say, it's kind of amusing watching this play out. There was nothing to gain from the Baeclast regarding my concerns except that GGG is going to hard stick to the hardcore mindset here.

However, that action belies their intent. They wouldn't go onto baeclast unless they're worried about losing a large majority of their playerbase, most of whom are casual. Much of Chris' philosophy goes against what much of these casuals want, and the introduction of H A R D M O D E and Masochist mode (which is blatantly ripped from Last Epoch) is not going to draw them back.

And this underlines the intention behind showing up to Baeclast. Your actions and your philosophy show that you do not care about them. So why go on Baeclast in the first place? Much of the hardcore who screamed against us, calling harvest crafting "item-editor" and such liked the initial changes.

Isn't that the audience you wanted?

If you half-ass this thing, you're only going to anger both, again. You need to full-ass commit to a direction.

The only way to regain both is to change your fundamental philosophy driving the game. And in order to do that, you have to understand why people actually play your game and what they actually enjoyed about it and deliver more of that right now.

"

Tsokushin wrote:

However, that action belies their intent. They wouldn't go onto baeclast unless they're worried about losing a large majority of their playerbase, most of whom are casual. Much of Chris' philosophy goes against what much of these casuals want, and the introduction of H A R D M O D E and Masochist mode (which is blatantly ripped from Last Epoch) is not going to draw them back.

Are casuals the target audience of a 3.5 hour podcast?