GGG at the Crossroads

Sorry to say that this post will be filled with old quotes I wrote some time ago. I don't find value in typing out again what I have already wrote.

But now, the quote in question. It's quoted in its entirety for the sake of posterity. The relevant section is in bold.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2905196/page/2#p23381951

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I_NO wrote:

Entitlement is basically all I read.

Entitlement works both ways. GGG isn't entitled to money or time if the customer isn't satisfied with the game.

In the end, GGG is going to come to a hard decision, especially with other ARPG's coming up and fully showing that people are HUNGRY for another game in the genre. Take Wolcen. I still hold it to be #1 in steam player numbers simply because poe has tons of bots. All of those players paid to actually play.

Point being, is that they will eventually have to make a decision to keep the hardcore scheme they have, and have a much lower but dedicated audience. Or, go wide with the potential, but mitigatable risk of watering down their content.

I will still praise GGG for the theorycrafting side of the game. Hands down second to none.

I will however say gameplay, while seeing much more improvement, is still lacking in some ways for me.

The instant there's a Wolcen/D3 style gameplay with PoE style crafting/gearing/building is the game I'll pour money into. And that's only if the poe style crafting/gearing/building isn't as hard RNG/trade-balance gated as it is in this game.

And it seems we're finally here. GGG from the development manifesto is taking the hardcore path. Not to say there's anything wrong with taking that choice, as artists you all must remain true to the form you wish to bring. I sincerely wish you all the best in this endeavor of yours.

Normally, I'd attempt to dissuade you, point out why I think direction you're taking is foolish, but I've already done that. In this post, about 8 months ago.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2916719

And it's very telling that all of the people who want harvest to remain, even buff it are saying the exact same things that I said then.

So, here's one more little piece, I suppose. Something I also wrote a while back.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2925213/page/4#p23450509

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I_NO wrote:

We don't need to isolate them we need to educate them if anything OP feels entitled to feel he should be equal to the people who are committed to playing a lot oh please even GGG thinks that's silly.

Like no matter how many times you guys write 5 paragraph essay's on how it's your last league etc it's not going to change the outcome like OP legit believes because he has limited time he should be entitled to it like you can't make that shit up.

I HAS A FAMILY! That's going to become a meme 100%

Without fail, every time I read a post of yours, I'm reminded that this entire community is full of people that spout things like you.

The OP isn't entitled to anything. GGG is also not entitled to players or money. GGG has offered a f2p game and that's fine, but they are not entitled to a single cent if people are not happy with the way it is. Whether that's from the "ultra elite", hardcore whales, or the buy-mtx-to-look-cool casuals, GGG is seemingly dropping the ball at catering to both of those. And right now it's the "ultra elite" talking down to the casuals.

This is what's hilarious about this. You guys keep repeating that this is not the game for them, that they should quit and find another game. This rhetoric has massively increased this past league because of the vast amount of people seeing the potential in harvest crafting. And it's going to be real funny when a lot of people just stop arguing, agree, and find a game that better suites them.

So to my fellow forum goers who are disgruntled over the pruning of such an expansive experience to the game, and are seeing the forms of argument GGG and certain forum members are taking, I'd like to tell you to change your perspective.

That perhaps these people have your bests interests at heart when they say that this isn't the game for you. That maybe, just maybe, they're correct in that harvest is bad for the game. And then perhaps you too will understand that what you want out of the game and what the developers and these hardcore enthusiasts want it to be will never be equal.

That perhaps you too will understand that a division must take place until the visions of both yours and that of the driving forces of this game have some semblance of being aligned.

All that being said, thank you GGG for the time. I came back as I said I would with Harvest, and the direction you're taking is not one I agree with. Definitely would not make the choice you're making, but I got my own life to live.

I don’t disagree with the general points you’re making, but I want to point out that Harvest’s importance to the game and whatever journey its on has been vastly overstated.

Frankly, targeted chaos and ex (which seem like they might actually become more common, not less, next league) will remain a huge boon to more casual players. Top-end crafters will still do their thing, with solid (but not perfect) items still available and affordable for everyone else.

We’re also staving off general monster buffs this way. They would have been inevitable if GGG started balancing around everyone having perfect gear.

I mean I_NO was only wrong about one thing. The "but I have a family" thing won't become a meme, it has already been a meme for years, it's just that you see more of it now.

PoE was never really designed around players that have 8 jobs 2 wives 14 children & 3 babies on the way and can afford to play 20 minutes on weekends only, at it's core it's a grindny game that's simply impossible to tailor to suit these types of players, unless you massively water down content and make this a casual game, and I'm honestly glad that ggg is refraining from doing so.

The whole reason this game even picked up on a dedicated playerbase to begin with is because the hardcore aprg market went dry and suddenly PoE became the game.

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game, much more easier said than done, although instead of a decent summation as the other commenter pointed out, this whole post is "waah muh harvest" in disguise of a long & boring wall of text.

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kole wrote:

I mean I_NO was only wrong about one thing. The "but I have a family" thing won't become a meme, it has already been a meme for years, it's just that you see more of it now.

PoE was never really designed around players that have 8 jobs 2 wives 14 children & 3 babies on the way and can afford to play 20 minutes on weekends only, at it's core it's a grindny game that's simply impossible to tailor to suit these types of players, unless you massively water down content and make this a casual game, and I'm honestly glad that ggg is refraining from doing so.

The whole reason this game even picked up on a dedicated playerbase to begin with is because the hardcore aprg market went dry and suddenly PoE became the game.

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game, much more easier said than done, although instead of a decent summation as the other commenter pointed out, this whole post is "waah muh harvest" in disguise of a long & boring wall of text.

There is a sweet spot between too grindy & too casual, & PoE is over the chart in the grindy side. The only reason I am playing this far & welling to grind is because I am diehard person who wanted to beat all contents, & & shut the " have you beaten /do xzy." people.

But after this league, I am GG PoE, until not sure, maybe 6 months later or forever if a better ARG come along, & many good ARPG are coming within 1-2 years.

There are many moment when "playing" this game where I feel "blank" not sure what to do next. Oh, I am farming the same map I have farmed the last hour....

I can try push end bosses, but risk losing days of progress. It is super uncomforting the feeling you lose days of progress if you die, & I get it, some people like this trial of living on the edge, but that is why there is hardcore. I don't, I bet 90% or more POE players do not. This make the game not only unenjoyable but stressful.

This is why I decide to GG PoE after this elague. I have seen everything the game has to offer. No hard feeling, but the game is too grindy, stressful for me.

I will return to Diablo 3 & Last epoch for my ARPG needs until the big boys like D2R, D4 release. People here will go nuts when mentioning Diablo 3, but its a very enjoyable stress free game I can play with friends & its super fun to play wth friends, even randoms in public games.

Last EPoch is as satifactory, maybe even more so than PoE for theorycrafter, with the massive grind & frastation.



I think many PoE gamers are willing to jump ship if a decent competition comes along. POE has the advantage being the only live service arpg game allow constant updates. Even Zizaran, in his latest video said, D3 did not "died" (it wasn't dead) becusae it is casual, it "died" due to lack of content update, & the reason being not live service model.

Poe is already at a point of terminal power creep thats threatening to destroy the host.

Adding harvest to core was a big mistake.

I look on reddit and all you see far and wide is people demanding more power in shorter duration so they can quit the league sooner.

Of course i can't tell you what to enjoy but when i look at the speed people trash maps today zooming around like kids with adhd and hitting lvl 100 withing hours, i can tell you for sure it is not what i had envisioned for path of exile 9 years ago.

More, more, more and right now.

People sitting on standard and having an opinion on trade leagues. We all have assholes anyway, right?

And I'm not going to bother answering the person who had issues with clicking items. Not sure if meme or what but from talking shit to everyone and getting away with it because mods allow it to "I don't want to click my pennies" when you can use uber uber strict loot by now.

People is entitled with their own money as they should, yes. I'm not going to tell randoms what to do with their own money, nobody should tell you what to do with it.

This is probably the worst timing for them to nerf everyone because of that shit discord, performance was awful on 3.13 despite already having a technical patch backa in 3.11 that somewhat promised fixes and delivered absolute nothing.

Dev's themselves are to blame, not the casuals, not the discord, not the streamers. They have the last word.. influenced by streamers or .1% is one thing but they have the last word.

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kole wrote:

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game

Easy: Make it as hardcore and difficult as they want for temp leagues, make it an easy casual playground for standard. Many consider standard that already anyways.
"Easy" - obviously I am exaggerating, it wouldn't be EASY to do. But certainly possible.

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Wissle wrote:

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kole wrote:

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game

Easy: Make it as hardcore and difficult as they want for temp leagues, make it an easy casual playground for standard. Many consider standard that already anyways.
"Easy" - obviously I am exaggerating, it wouldn't be EASY to do. But certainly possible.

Then comes the outrage temp leagues are gated behind no lifing I can't afford the time to play them and I would like to experience new content when it's released, temp leagues are made only for 0.0000001%.

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kole wrote:

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Wissle wrote:

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kole wrote:

I would really like to see how you or anyone else would properly design a game such as PoE to cater both to casual and hardcore players without the two playing different versions of the same game

Easy: Make it as hardcore and difficult as they want for temp leagues, make it an easy casual playground for standard. Many consider standard that already anyways.
"Easy" - obviously I am exaggerating, it wouldn't be EASY to do. But certainly possible.

Then comes the outrage temp leagues are gated behind no lifing I can't afford the time to play them and I would like to experience new content when it's released, temp leagues are made only for 0.0000001%.

Very much possible and probable even. But they could market it in that way, to clearly separate "this is casual mode" from "this is hardcore intense investment mode".
Maybe it's naive to think but then all that's required is for players to access their own type accurately after they know the game well enough for that.

They've been at this "crossroads" for about 5 years now.