Perandus listing abuse should be banned or removed from the game...

"

SirGuySW wrote:

What's the difference (in terms of bot-market-manipulation) between the system we have now and an auction house?

market manipulation by mass purchases. currently it's a pretty time consuming task to mass buy off certain itms to create a shortage and it's not possible in a reasonably short time.

but at some items with short supply it's already executed.

bot software which is run instead of the client can abuse the free access to accounts to mass buy on command.

"

SirGuySW wrote:

What functionality does an auction house bring to enable bots to more effectively manipulate the market?

for example: bots can gear up from a auction house undetected and fully automated.

the current system isn't bot fully proof but i don't know if you've seen the threads making fun about bots wanting to buy standard uniques and people having their fun with them or even abuse them to make some bucks.

it fairly works.

"

SirGuySW wrote:

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

I'm very confused by this thread.

Do you guys really not set your filters on the trade site to only show listings priced in chaos/exalted orbs?

Why would you do that to yourselves?

People keep bringing this up. What does it solve? How does it filter out players listing their items in chaos/exalted who have no intention of selling their items? All it does is filter out a portion of price fixers and trolls. The problem still exists.

Well, it solves OP's problem, for one. OP is talking about how pricing your items in nonstandard currencies allow them to always be listed at the top of the list when sorted by price.

If you want to talk about people not selling their items, that's another issue entirely and you should make it a new thread. Hijacking threads isn't cool.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Well, it solves OP's problem, for one. OP is talking about how pricing your items in nonstandard currencies allow them to always be listed at the top of the list when sorted by price.

If you want to talk about people not selling their items, that's another issue entirely and you should make it a new thread. Hijacking threads isn't cool.

I was talking about people not selling their items at the listed price. IE: listing their items for way lower than they actually intend to sell them AND listing items as signboards to advertise other services... which is exactly what this topic and OP is about.

Filtering trades to only those in chaos/exalted orbs does not solve the problem of people listing their items for a lower value than the 'real price' of the item. Again, the problem still exists, you've just removed Perandus (and other obscure currencies) from the equation...which was the point of what I wrote: The problem exists in chaos/exalted listings too.

"

vio wrote:

market manipulation by mass purchases. currently it's a pretty time consuming task to mass buy off certain itms to create a shortage and it's not possible in a reasonably short time.

but at some items with short supply it's already executed.

bot software which is run instead of the client can abuse the free access to accounts to mass buy on command.

I don't think that answers the question.

Bots don't care about how long it takes to do something. They'll patiently keep at it until the task is complete. They can also be replicated (infinitely, as you pointed out) to speed up the process. In other words: Can't that be done in the current system just as well as in an auction house-like system?

"

vio wrote:

for example: bots can gear up from a auction house undetected and fully automated.

the current system isn't bot fully proof but i don't know if you've seen the threads making fun about bots wanting to buy standard uniques and people having their fun with them or even abuse them to make some bucks.

Ok, but how does them being undetected by normie players help them destroy the economy? Other than the edge cases where a poorly designed bot gets stuck (which will happen with any system).

A decently designed bot can already gear up more or less undetected by players and indeed fully automated (as far as the bot's concerned) by executing (hundreds if needed) manual trades with players or other bots. Again, bots are patient, they don't care if their first dozen trade requests are ignored in the current system.

If the argument is that with an auction house-like system bots wouldn't have to go through those dozen or so trade requests per item and would have instant access to their gear... that's *THE* argument for an auction house-like system and the same logic applies for players. Bots (who after all are basically players) share the same benefits of an auction house-like system as players do. The question is how would bots be able to abuse this system to jeopardize the economy more than they do with the current system.

Not asked here but of interest on the other side of the coin is, "What benefit would be gained by players and is that benefit worth whatever abuse-ability might be gained by bots via such a system?"

"

vio wrote:

what's "dumb shit" about their stance to have player interaction work against bots manipulating the markets?

talking about inefficient markets: games are about NOT giving players what they want (immediately).

i see no reason why certain game elements like trading should avoid this principle? seeing someone selling an item but being offline will make you login again and hope he sells the item for a reasonable price.

AAAAAAAA, you should need a license in Logic & Analysis before being allowed to talk on any online medium.



Bots are ALREADY rampant. And the LARGE MAJORITY of my trades that aren't ignored by an AFK guy or a League-only guy are performed by bots. If it weren't for botters, I'd go entire days without ever being able to finalize a trade.

Making a trade with a player isn't "player interaction". If you're classifying that as player interaction, and checking that box and considering that department covered, you're simply cutting corners to falsely meet a quota. Just like when you go to the grocery store and have a few smiles and unfunny jokes with the cashier. You leave and immediately forget your totally meaningless interaction, and that's MORE interaction than you'll EVER get making a PoE trade.



As for games not "giving players what they want (immediately)," yes, you are correct. Blizzard actually gets flak for this, big time. They "ration" their QoL's and other such things. It's all about data and numbers to them. (Is GGG the same way?)

If you release content and intentionally sandbag its quality, people will come to it anyway, not knowing any better. Then, when player count starts to drop, you release updates that you already had prepared but were holding back, that way players come back again for X amount of time. It's a cheap tactic for the big corporate clowns. The fact that you see it as a positive thing is really telling.

"

i see no reason why certain game elements like trading should avoid this principle? seeing someone selling an item but being offline will make you login again and hope he sells the item for a reasonable price.

You even basically straight-up admit this with this line.

You think the intentional inconvenience of no Auction House is a good thing because it makes us log in again later to check if the seller is online.

You don't realize how insane that is to say? (Well, not insane, but corporate, rather.) You'd rather manipulate the data to make it look like players are happy because of their logins and playtime, instead of just make a good game and have that take care of everything.



I suspect part of this is because companies aren't confident they CAN simply make a great game, and instead choose to RELY on these cheap tactics.

It's just a real shame that GGG has fallen to this. (And a shame that players like you knowingly back up these types of strategies.)

Also, bots wouldn't just be randomly able to do anything with an AH that they can't already do.

"It's more time consuming with the current system"??? Is that really your line of defense???

I'm not really sure if BOTS care about the time they spend doing a mundane task. That's the entire point of a bot. A machine is doing the work for you, so you don't have to be there wasting your own time.



Would an AH speed up the process of one singular bot from manipulating the market of some item?

Sure.

But if you consider the fact that people in the current system can work together to achieve such a goal, then that argument really loses almost all of what little value it ever had.

Additionally, good ol' "supply & demand" will cut in. What do you think, exactly? Because of an AH, a single bot owner is going to corner the market on Goldrim? Get real, dude.

Ultimately, any item is worth whatever a person is willing to pay for it. If Goldrim went to 10 Exalts, all being sold by the same guy... then people either would or would not buy it. And if nobody buys it for long enough, the seller either goes down to 9 Exalts, or lets his investment rot away unsold.

Then 8 Ex.

Then 7.

Etc.

All in all, EVERY item will get normalized, forcibly, due to the mechanics of PREVENTING listing abuse. What's listed is listed, and can be bought. Period. Done & done.

And every item will follow suit. The population will all collectively dictate the price of any given item. And if an item is super rare and one of a kind, then... the same exact thing applies. It is worth whatever any person is willing to pay for it. And it really is that simple.





Ok.

Your turn.

"

ShadyC wrote:

Also, bots wouldn't just be randomly able to do anything with an AH that they can't already do.

"It's more time consuming with the current system"??? Is that really your line of defense???

I'm not really sure if BOTS care about the time they spend doing a mundane task. That's the entire point of a bot. A machine is doing the work for you, so you don't have to be there wasting your own time.



Would an AH speed up the process of one singular bot from manipulating the market of some item?

Sure.

But if you consider the fact that people in the current system can work together to achieve such a goal, then that argument really loses almost all of what little value it ever had.

Additionally, good ol' "supply & demand" will cut in. What do you think, exactly? Because of an AH, a single bot owner is going to corner the market on Goldrim? Get real, dude.

Ultimately, any item is worth whatever a person is willing to pay for it. If Goldrim went to 10 Exalts, all being sold by the same guy... then people either would or would not buy it. And if nobody buys it for long enough, the seller either goes down to 9 Exalts, or lets his investment rot away unsold.

Then 8 Ex.

Then 7.

Etc.

All in all, EVERY item will get normalized, forcibly, due to the mechanics of PREVENTING listing abuse. What's listed is listed, and can be bought. Period. Done & done.

And every item will follow suit. The population will all collectively dictate the price of any given item. And if an item is super rare and one of a kind, then... the same exact thing applies. It is worth whatever any person is willing to pay for it. And it really is that simple.





Ok.

Your turn.

Typical response from the opposition.

"

vio wrote:

"

guavasauce wrote:

Do you even have a single clue how an auction house works? Nothing you've implied makes a single bit of sense regarding how one works or why its needed. Pretty typical for the carp that hang out at the end of the dock though.

... Go back to the end of the dock

i really would have talked to you if you had left out the personal insults.

Doesn't matter, everyone else is logically crapping on your process anyway.

I think Chris needs to make a "responses to use against people who destroy my silly ideas" thread to give his echo chambers a chance.

"

guavasauce wrote:

"

vio wrote:

"

guavasauce wrote:

Do you even have a single clue how an auction house works? Nothing you've implied makes a single bit of sense regarding how one works or why its needed. Pretty typical for the carp that hang out at the end of the dock though.

... Go back to the end of the dock

i really would have talked to you if you had left out the personal insults.

Doesn't matter, everyone else is logically crapping on your process anyway.

I think Chris needs to make a "responses to use against people who destroy my silly ideas" thread to give his echo chambers a chance.

the current trading situation actively prevents mass buyouts of currency and most items and soo mass market manipulation.

that's independent on how the trade advertising works as a auction already.

it works.

if you wanna change it you have to prove that the change improves it.
improves it for the game, not the group of players profiting the most from it.

it got nothing to do with "echo chamber" or anything. if you owned the game you wouldn't change it for the worse either.