This game ruined Diablo 3 for me...

eh PoE just gives you that feel like yur playing the original diablo again i even cancelled my preorder for diablo 3 for this too

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thepmrc wrote:

and they also provide ways to augment those skills with meaningful character choices via the passive skill tree. Gear went a long way in D2 LOD in expanding build possibility and D3 may offer that in the future. Being able to allocate your own stat points gave you the feeling that you were actually choosing the direction your character went rather than the game forcing you in one direction. Sure choosing a max hp build vs max block build wasn't game breaking but at least it gave control to the player. Why not build in a botting feature too? It already builds my character for me why not play it for me too?

In D2 I would have to choose which skills to maximize in potential just like in poe. In D3 the skill is what it is. That is why I say there is no customization, because there is not any customization. I choose a skill, I get that skill, end of story. If I want to augment that skill or build around it in some way Im SOL because the character development lacks any depth. I hope this changes as I am a huge fan of the Diablo franchise, but I also like games that are developed for adults not children. As I see it D3 is geared more for a 5 year old than a Diablo Vet and it makes me a very sad panda.

Blizzard blues stated that high level items (especially uniques and sets) will likely alter stats for skills in some way. OR do something meaningful for builds.

Item kit is as much a customizaton choice and to that end almost every item lvl58 or higher is going to be designed with itemization being a core mechanic in mind.

That's no different from the previous runes system. What you choose to equip will alter the way your skills work. What rune you decide to use will change the way you use your skills (giant toad is one of my favorites). What you put together changes skill synergies. And you have three more passive slots just to say "Hey I want to do this". It's not as simple as "I have askill. It wil always be the same" and is no different from "I put skill points in this skill"

I'm glad that you were comforted by the illusion of choice presented in other skill systems I happy for you. A good chunk of us were not convinced by the illusion.

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Autocthon wrote:

So basicaly once you know what you want then it's the exact same ting between having skill points and not having them. Jumping through hoops to set up viable kits does not amke the fact that you've decided on a kit change.

Its not. If no skill points, you do nothing. If there is skill points you do somthing.

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Autocthon wrote:

1) You know what you're gonna use whether you have skill points or not. So therefore skill points aren't a reward either.

2) D2 is D3 with skill points. Or rather D3 is D2 without skill points. Same system, same basic class paradigms same roles, same style. One ARPG is generally equivalent to another.

3) D3 with skill points is the same as D3 without skill points. Do you wanna know why? BEcause adding those skill points adds moving parts. More moving parts = harder to balance = less options for viable builds. If you do not understand that you REALLY need to stop and look at viable builds in D2 again. There were roughly 4 for each class on average that actually got used and EVERY SINGLE ONE wa s a gimmick. Using ANY OTHER BUILD is just making the game harder for yourself.

4) I deleted my quote so I don't even remember what the number four was. Either way you're wrong due to some flaw in your logic or on oversight in your understanding of how the system by definition must work.

1. they are, becouse you do somthing, you put that manually in.
2. its not. In d2 you have skill tree, all skills are not balanced on weapon dmg. Its not same system, you should play d2 again, you forghot.
3. Harder to balance=less viable build? What logic is that. It cant have less viable builds. Man, stop comparing d2 to d3, they are not the same. Did you played d3 beta? You know that becouse of resource system and cool down you need to use more skills, and that all skills have a % weapon dmg. Its not same as d2 at all. In d2 there where little viable builds NOT BECOUSE OF SKILL POINT, BUT BECOUSE OF NOT BALANCE SKILLS.
4. Your logic is flawed because you think that the balance is fixed by removing skill points.

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Autocthon wrote:

You apparently do not understand. REMOVING SKILL POINTS IS WHAT ALLOWED THEM TO FIND BALANNCE. Skil points are in 99% of cases a hurdle that developers must overcome to balance the game. Point systems add moving parts which makes balancing harder because it causes a dynamic range within which something operates which allows for non-choices and trap choices. Which is why they removed skill point systems in the first place.

It doesnt fix anything. Skill are balanced only becouse of weapon % dmg, not becouse of removing skill points. Skill point allow for more errors, but there is always free respect.

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Autocthon wrote:

D2 is the only comparable baseline as it is the only Diablo game to use skill points. It is impossible to compare "D3 without skill points" to "D3 with" because (now get this) D3 HAS NEVER HAD SKILL POINTS.

You can compare it easy, but if you can't than no comments.

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Autocthon wrote:

1) And since the game will by definition be balanced for you putting all 20 points into the skills you use only 24^6 would be viable. Maybe a couple more if someone finds a broken skill. (though the occasional game is balanced around "15" instead if you're lucky)

2) There was no respec in D2 until recently because skill point systems are not designed around respecs, and lose al meaning in a game wherein you can respec whenever you want. That is why MoP is dropping the talent point system and opting for a more streamlined version. In fact if they aded a skill point system to D3 that means you'd just be moving more points when you want to change your kit that is just a waste of time.

3) In D3 your equipment is supposed to be your main customization. Your kit first then the TRUE customization will be finding the perfect set to support your kit. ARPGs are AL ABOUT THE LOOT. More design space for loot is a good thing. The reaosn players spamed vitality in D2 and single skill builds in D2 was the fact that anything else was subpar and blizzard has tried for like a decade to make other options more attractive. Guess what, they failed.

1. Viable? So build is viable or not? Dark or white? Nothing between? Builds are more or less viable. It will give more options, its simple as that.
2. stop talking about d2. Moving more points when you change kit? It's really hard to make a button that adds max points to skill, if you don't want to experiment
3. This, d3 item custoimzation.That is the main problem. All customization is by items, before it was more with character. Good that you said it.

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Autocthon wrote:

Skill points by definition are balanced at maximum points in a skill or near maximum. This means that they NEVER introduce additional viable builds that simply having the skills wouldn't do unless there is a broken skill. See WoW and D2. Poster childs for skill points, both are ocked into cookie cutter builds being the only viable builds. Same goes for TQ to a large extent but they mitigated it a bit by giving a degree of itemization room.

Man, build is not viable or not. Builds go form viable to less viable to not viable. There is not only dark and white, there are colors between. But you can't have it in such numbers without skill points, youl have only dark and white.

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Autocthon wrote:

There is no D3 with skill points to compare to. There is only D3 as is. If beta had tested skill points you could go ahead and compare. But EVERY skill point system ever introduced has had FAR MORE trap builds than actually viable builds. Go play some DnD 3.5, or older WoW, or D2 and maybe you'll understand.

You go play any rpg game. Skill points were never the problem. Problem is to make all skill different enough and balanced.

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Autocthon wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

and they also provide ways to augment those skills with meaningful character choices via the passive skill tree. Gear went a long way in D2 LOD in expanding build possibility and D3 may offer that in the future. Being able to allocate your own stat points gave you the feeling that you were actually choosing the direction your character went rather than the game forcing you in one direction. Sure choosing a max hp build vs max block build wasn't game breaking but at least it gave control to the player. Why not build in a botting feature too? It already builds my character for me why not play it for me too?

In D2 I would have to choose which skills to maximize in potential just like in poe. In D3 the skill is what it is. That is why I say there is no customization, because there is not any customization. I choose a skill, I get that skill, end of story. If I want to augment that skill or build around it in some way Im SOL because the character development lacks any depth. I hope this changes as I am a huge fan of the Diablo franchise, but I also like games that are developed for adults not children. As I see it D3 is geared more for a 5 year old than a Diablo Vet and it makes me a very sad panda.

Blizzard blues stated that high level items (especially uniques and sets) will likely alter stats for skills in some way. OR do something meaningful for builds.

Item kit is as much a customizaton choice and to that end almost every item lvl58 or higher is going to be designed with itemization being a core mechanic in mind.

That's no different from the previous runes system. What you choose to equip will alter the way your skills work. What rune you decide to use will change the way you use your skills (giant toad is one of my favorites). What you put together changes skill synergies. And you have three more passive slots just to say "Hey I want to do this". It's not as simple as "I have askill. It wil always be the same" and is no different from "I put skill points in this skill"

I'm glad that you were comforted by the illusion of choice presented in other skill systems I happy for you. A good chunk of us were not convinced by the illusion.

Im glad you don't like meaningful binding choice in character development, means you will like D3. I am sure a lot of people will, its built so an autistic monkey can be on equal footing with anyone else.

Bottom line in an RPG I want character choices beyond 'What skill do I want to equip'. This is where we differ, you don't want to make choices, I do. If you don't feel that Poe offers more choice in character development then I cant continue to debate as you are blinded by your affection for blizzard.

I have played both games and i would say that both got huge pros and cons. The best game would be if you mix them both lol.
Anyway here how i would go with scoring.

Lore/story - i would go for diablo 3 in this as winner ,but they got huge budget to do so and much more people working on it. I think PoE could compete in this ,but they are bothered by more important things now.

Customization - its really hard to say with one wins.
Diablo 3 costumize stats now via gems you put in gear rather than stat input. PoE got huge passive skill tree ,with got also huge imbalance in it.
Diablo and PoE items are nicely costumized.
Skills in diablo got less "support gems" aka runes in them ,but they got bigger impact on skill. Also gear can modify skills too. Also you support every skill you use in diablo.
PoE got more max supports per skill ,but its limited by gear with is unfun ,you also mostly support just few skills out of your all skills. Plus the supports are pretty dull modifications.

Diablo high plus is that you can change your skills whenever you want ,so its not so boring nor so siriously stupid gameplay. You can change to cookiecutter build if you want sirious play ,try fun stuff without wasting time and change your build accoridng to pve ,party play or pvp.
PoE dont allow that ,you create 1 char and you get stuck for it basicaly forever with current refund skill system and lvling of skill gems.

Gameplay - i must say that playing diablo lvl 10 char is much more fun than PoE 70 lvl char.
Like i bring up the problem from since i play PoE , no cooldown skills and easy to get mana system make you use 1 attack skill ,max 2. With is superb boring like hell after few hours of play.
Diablo on other hand not only have better skill balance ,better skill limitation system ,but also like i said ,you can remake your build whenever you get bored of the current one.

Enviroment and graphic - PoE got better graphic ,but art style of diablo 3 is not bad either. There are already filters made by users that fix the problem a bit.
Diablo 3 also works on lower spec PCs .and dont overheat my graphic card nor drop my frames. But i guess thats still will be fixed in PoE in future.
Diablo 3 got much ebtter inveraction with enviroment ,you see statue you can break it ,you see table and chair you can break it too. They are better placed on the map aswell ,on PoE you can find chest in really wierd places ,even on water. Both games have some nice spawning mob animations with i like alot aswell.


While i love PoE passive tree its actualy to unbalanced for me. I would pick diablo 3 overally due to their skill system. For me skill/fighting system is most important part of the game. You come to fighting game to fight monsters ,and you fight them with skills. You dont come here to watch some story (you can get that by reading book) ,you dont come here to listen to music ,nor watch enviroment graphic ,you come here to kcik some arses. And PoE really lack much in this depertament.

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derbefrier wrote:

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Ragura wrote:

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Autocthon wrote:

The customizing options in D3 are also far deeper than D2 simply because you care more about gear.

This is untrue in my opinion and also one of the biggest turn offs of D3 for me.
In D2, PoE, Titan Quest, you name it, there are SO many more affixes that determine the sort of gear you'll get it's not even funny anymore. If you've played the D3 beta, you'll notice 75% of the items that drop have extra XP, gold, health globes on kill and the other 25% consists of extra damage (real build changer!) or thorns.

The problem for me is D3's customization looks as if it's catered to children or non-gamers. There's a reason the DPS and defense number on the item tooltips are huge: it's because this is the number that will matter most 95% of the time. All the rest on the item looks as if it will not be a build changer. In my ARPGs I like it when item choice is dictated by build choice, or in other words, they support each other to form a whole.

If I can pick any combination of 6 skills in D3 to create a somewhat viable build, I at LEAST want it to mean that you need at least 2-3 different item sets to support those builds. But that goes against Blizzard's new ideology where you're supposed to be able to click randomly on the UI and get a viable build and the items will support that no matter what.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not hating on D3, I do feel the game has a lot of polish and looks like it's achieved what it wanted to achieve. That goal is just not the one I personally wanted to see achieved.

So I'm sticking with PoE, at least until I get to try other ARPGs that have yet to come out :)

this is not a matter of opinion its fact D3 has more customization. the main difference from what say PoE offers is that instead of having limitless options at the beginning and later being pigeon holed into only really 1 choice(even if it sucks) in D3 you start out with limited options and as you progress and level more more options becomes available until there are thousands of potential character builds.

Man I hate people who dress up their opinion as fact.

Considering that if I level a barb to 60 I make exactly ZERO meaningful character choices, how is this more customization. ZERO =/= More

In my opinion (see how I actually state that its opinion and not state that my opinion is fact?) Choosing which skill to use is not character customization when I unlock all of the skills and variations without actually making ANY choices. Its homogeneous and stale.

In my opinion, see how i did that again, POE offers more customization in the passive tree alone than everything I have seen thus far from D3. I do hope that the full release changes my feelings in this regard, but with every announcement it has seemed less and less likely.

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thepmrc wrote:

Man I hate people who dress up their opinion as fact.

Considering that if I level a barb to 60 I make exactly ZERO meaningful character choices, how is this more customization. ZERO =/= More

In my opinion (see how I actually state that its opinion and not state that my opinion is fact?) Choosing which skill to use is not character customization when I unlock all of the skills and variations without actually making ANY choices. Its homogeneous and stale.

In my opinion, see how i did that again, POE offers more customization in the passive tree alone than everything I have seen thus far from D3. I do hope that the full release changes my feelings in this regard, but with every announcement it has seemed less and less likely.

I think you are all missing the point. Now I like POE a lot, I dont like the charges system, I think it ruins the game but aside from that I like POE. So its not like im some POE hater. But POEs skill system while really interesting is just a gimmick when all is said and done.

Right now in beta flux its remaining interesting cause GGG keep altering it and adding to it. When release comes there will be a time when it becomes static, at which point within weeks all the best builds (which will be limited) will have their paths absolutely mapped out for them and anyone who chooses anything else will be gimping themselves.

Thats the point with D2, it gave an illusion of customisation, where as in reality all it did was allowed you to gimp your character OR put your stats where 99.9% of everyone else did. Thats the truth, you either followed the accepted best practice or deliberately ruined your effectiveness.

What they've tried to do with D3 is remove the possibility of gimping yourself by making the classes more defined and less fluid. By doing this they also actually increase player choice further down the line, when you add in limited skill choice, the fact most skills have a use (unlike say D2 or POE) and its clear why people say, as fact, that its got more choice. What they should perhaps say is it has more 'MEANINGFUL' choice.

I mean I really enjoyed just looking through POEs tree, but honestly who really believes that most of the options aren't just dead ends or poor choices? Choice and quantity doesn't mean its better.

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Avireyn wrote:

I'd say that graphics and especially artstyle are a matter of opinion.

Artstyle is indeed just down to personal taste. Graphics are a matter of fact, when someone says graphics I assume they mean, animation quality, lighting, definition, realisation of a believable game world, seemless interaction with your environment, small details. On nearly all those fronts D3 is clearly better.

You might prefer the artstyle of POE (so do I) but the graphics of D3 are superior.

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RodHull wrote:

What they've tried to do with D3 is remove the possibility of gimping yourself by making the classes more defined and less fluid. By doing this they also actually increase player choice further down the line, when you add in limited skill choice, the fact most skills have a use (unlike say D2 or POE) and its clear why people say, as fact, that its got more choice. What they should perhaps say is it has more 'MEANINGFUL' choice.

I agree. They have removed the players ability to make 'MEANINGUL' choices. This is exactly what I have been saying. If you like this, grats, just don't try to tell me that it is a 'FACT' that limiting player choice is greater customization because that is plain and simple BS.

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thepmrc wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

What they've tried to do with D3 is remove the possibility of gimping yourself by making the classes more defined and less fluid. By doing this they also actually increase player choice further down the line, when you add in limited skill choice, the fact most skills have a use (unlike say D2 or POE) and its clear why people say, as fact, that its got more choice. What they should perhaps say is it has more 'MEANINGFUL' choice.

I agree. They have removed the players ability to make 'MEANINGUL' choices. This is exactly what I have been saying. If you like this, grats, just don't try to tell me that it is a 'FACT' that limiting player choice is greater customization because that is plain and simple BS.

You completely missed the point. If you think having one, and only one build to choose from with a given class is customization, I don't think you know what customization is.

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thepmrc wrote:

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RodHull wrote:

What they've tried to do with D3 is remove the possibility of gimping yourself by making the classes more defined and less fluid. By doing this they also actually increase player choice further down the line, when you add in limited skill choice, the fact most skills have a use (unlike say D2 or POE) and its clear why people say, as fact, that its got more choice. What they should perhaps say is it has more 'MEANINGFUL' choice.

I agree. They have removed the players ability to make 'MEANINGUL' choices. This is exactly what I have been saying. If you like this, grats, just don't try to tell me that it is a 'FACT' that limiting player choice is greater customization because that is plain and simple BS.

OK so let's go through a primer of "meaningful choice" versus "choice without meaning.. I'll talk about this form aD2 perspective:

In D2 you are given 5 attribute points to spend whenever you level up. For those of you who only evaluate "choice" and "customization" based on surface complexity I'm sure you're thinking "NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT". For those of us who can see past this illusion of character choice several things become apparent:

1) No character should ever have natural Str higher than 232. That is the Str required to wear the best armor. Attribute points are too precious to squander past that natural mark because the return for Sr->damage is very very low.

2) No character needs Dex greater than 188. That is the highest Dex requirement in game. The returns for attack/defense are too low for Dex to be worth anything given that NEARLY EVERY MELEE ATTACK IN GAME has some form or bonus attack rating (or at the very least is on a class with bonus attack rating).

3) Increasing energy is mildly efficient only for builds that intend neither to itemize for mana (mana itemization has a far lower opurtunity cost than getting mana from stats). The only class which eats mana fast enough to actually stat for it is the sorceress who has a naturally high mana pol and can equip items with better mana bonuses because...

4) Vitality conquers all. Every single point that isn't going toward hitting statistical marks of 232 Str / 188 Dex should be in here. Period. Health gain from Vitality is much much higher than health gain from level. Meet your basic requirement of Str/Dex and poor EVERYTHING into this.

The illusion of choice offered by the 5 attribute points a level is quickly revealed to be just that. An illusion. It takes only a few minutes of research, spending those attribute points in ANY way but as above is never a good thing. It only serves to make the game harder. This ilusion of choice only becomes apparent at higher levels for the casual player as they are QUICKLY outstripped by enemies in their combat ability.

And now about those skills. Let's atlk about the way skills REALLY work.

In ARPGs nearly every skill has a cast animation. That animation is generally of a static time assuming the abilities are meant to be spammed. Sring this animation you cannot cast another spell. What does that mean for skills? Well for one it means using more than one skill is NEVER a DPS increase over spaming only a single skill. You heard that right; NEVER. At the very best the two skills have the SAME damage and you neither gain nor lose damage. At the worst you decided to derp and split your skill points between two skills and now have two skills (that you are alternating for a net DPS loss over using one or the other) that are weaker than if you had put all your points in a single skill.

Let me illustrate:

You have 20 skill points and can choose between two skills. Those two skills each do 100 damage and scale + 10 damage a level. (Alternatively they do 100% of your DPS, this meakes no difference in the final effect.). If you put all yor points in one skill you get a skill that deals 300 damage a cast. Putting your points into these skills in any other way gives you a strong skill (which will never do 300 damage per cast, and alternating them will ALWAYS do the average of the two skills damage per cast) and a weak skil. If you split 50/50 you get two skills each doing 200 damage, and never capable of being cast faster than that other option of 1 skill doing 300 damage per cast. No matter what you do you are ALWAYS losing effectiveness.

Once again when you understand the WAY the system works you see that "choice" in your skills is only illusion. The game is balanced assuming a bare minimun damage per cast of skills roughly equivalent to the highest DPS you can get specializing in a single skill. The "choices" you presented are NEVER positively meaningful, and will ALWAYS be a DPS loss. At best you can "choose" to specialize in a single spell.

The only times these facts change is in the case of dedicated DoT effects. DoT effects can stack, meaning you can get higher DPS using multiple DoT effectas than if you use a single DoT. That is what made Necromancrers (skeletons are statistically a DoT) so effective in D2.

In D3 however any choice you make can have no worse than a net-neutral effect. Just because you are given a WHOLE toolkit does not mean you aren't making choices. And in fact certain layouts of kits will be more efficient for certain players. The choices you make in kitting yourself (and this includes items) never have a net-negative effect unless you just choose poorly synergistic spells. In this way personal choice becomes meaningful for a player: "Do I want more DoT or should I prefer spike damage? Which is better for ME?" and no choices (unless you turn elective mode on) are net negative unless you as a player dislike the skill itself.

In D3 the choices you make in your kit are meaningful. They alter the way you as aplayer approach the game and tailor your kit to your playstyle. In D2 there were no meaningful choices for any player who understood the mechanics of the aside from a VERY few instances (which lightning spell to pour all your points into or whether you wanted to use an axe or a mace barbarian) and the "customization choices" were ALL traps unless you were a pure specialist.

Thankfully PoE appears to have addressed the majority of the false choices, but has most definitely not addressed the ability to screw yourself over. Of course since skill-resets exist the ability to screw yourself over is at BEST a minor annoyance (compared to D2 at release where one mistake basically meant you had to start a character from scratch). D3 has decided to not give you the negatives of a skill system and instead give only the positives and focus on interesting itemization. I fully expect a number of class sets which add "Special" skill alterations or unique weapons/armor which interact with resource systems in cool ways. In this way D3 presents no fals choices, and makes skill kits meaningful on a personal level (as well as itemization).

If you cannot understand the difference between an illusion of choice and actual choice PLEASE be my guest and remain blissfuly ignorant of course. Life is much nicer before you realize that someone did all the math and came to the conlusion that there's only one actually efficient way to stat/skill and that everything else is just intentionally gimping yourself.

Of course this is coming from a guy who plays Conviction Vengeadins, and spell-less static shock battle sorceresses.