Long Read: How not a single ARPG innovated Loot Systems since Diablo 2.

Original Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/d3/t/feedback-diablo-iv-arpg-itemization/19015

EDIT: TL:DR version: ARPG itemization hasn’t innovated past Diablo 2 from the year 2000. It’s 2020 and we need more creative item system innovations. I put together a proposed idea but its just an example of what I’m talking about. That idea is essentially:

Four levels of rarity with items:
1.) Item Rarity: Only determines what tier of affix you can go up to and is not guarenteed. Its a potential.

Common: T1
Uncommon: T1-T2
Magic: T1-T3
Rare: T1-T4
Legendary: T1-T5
Mythic: T1-T6
Artifact: T1-T7
Godly: T1-T8

2.) Amount of Affixes: All items can roll 4-8 affixes but 7 and 8 are extremely rare.
3.) Tier of individual affixes. (High rarity can go up to Tier 8 but its very rare)
4.) The branches of the tiered affix. (Tiers past the 1st can branch into different stats which is all random)

**Tier on affixes doesn’t mean higher number like 40 strength vs 60 strength, it means more actual stats per affix tier. **

Lastly, Set items are a bad idea, set systems are a good idea. Meaning there is no set item rarity but rather you can turn any item into a set piece through some rare process.

TL:DR Version Ends Here

Since the Diablo 2 era, we have yet to see further innovation with ARPG itemization in ANY action RPG. Yes, you heard me correct, every game since Diablo 2 has been using very similar formulas with minor differences.

A comparison of what I’m talking about is like when World of Warcraft came out and the next 8 years was filled with companies trying to make a MMO like WoW and most flopping.

With ARPGs, the item system formula isn’t necessarily a bad thing and you can copy it and be “safe”. ARPGs are the type of game where you just want to kill bad guys and collect loot. In 2020, we are still doing just that except there has been no attempt to truly innovate the item system in ANY action RPG.

Well, the formula that pretty much all ARPGs use (Not exactly the same. Visual aesthetics are different in every game. Meaning, its the same same system just a different way of showing the player.) is an affix system.

The game will have a list of possible affixes that roll on an item and then you have rarities which decide how many rarities are on the item. Also, you have unique items which are designed by the developers to have specific affixes.

Here is what it looks like (Like I said, the aesthetics vary from game to game so many the colors are different or the amount of affixes changes)

White Items: 1 Base Stat
Blue Items: 1 Base Stats and/or 1-2 random affix
Yellow: 1 Base Stat and/or 3-6 random affixes

That is the bread and butter of most ARPGs since the year 2000. We are now in 2020 using literally the exact same formula but across different games. If you really look at the genre as a whole, we haven’t moved since Diablo 2. No innovation, no changes, nothing. Maybe one game has action combat and the other point and click, but absolutely NO innovation on the item system.

I want to see a game company really innovate ARPG loot. Make it better, bigger, MORE… Think outside the box. It’s not easy. Costs a lot of money to make a game but in my honest opinion, the only thing I come back to an ARPG for is the loot. If the loot grind is boring, I won’t come back.

Am I saying the color coded system or affix system doesn’t work? Absolutely not. I am just saying there has been very little innovation away from this base system.

-Just take a look at white items and blue items. I know that’s arbitrary but you know what I mean. In what ARPG do white items and blue items have meaning besides being some form of vendor fodder? So my question is, why do they even exist? Every item should have a value. (Value as in, it’s used in the game systems somehow, even at high end gameplay)

[For a random example I just threw together in 2 minutes here is what I am talking about]:

Imagine there are loot rarities but they don’t necessarily mean the amount of affixes.

Imagine there are rarities of affixes rolled individually within the item drop.

Imagine higher rarities of affixes within the item branch off and have affixes within the affix if you hit a certain rarity.

Imagine higher rarities of actual items just means a bigger pool of affixes.

So with the above being said, let me elaborate as best I can.

The rarity will not define how many affixes an item has but rather how far the item can potentially go in the affix rarity branch.

Example:

Strength Affix (T= Tier B= Branch)

T1: 10 Strength
T2: 20 Strength
T3: 25 Strength + 2% Increased Strength
T4 B1: 25 Strength + 3% Increased Strength + 5% Crushing Blow
T4 B2: 25 Strength + 3% Increased Strength + 5% Deep Wounds
T4 B3: 25 Strength + 3% Increased Strength + 5% Double Attack
T5 B1.1: 30 Strength + 5% Increased Strength + 7% Crushing Blow + 10% Chance of Enrage on hit
T5 B1.2: 30 Strength + 5% Increased Strength + 7% Crushing Blow + 10% Chance of Might Aura on hit

This is just ONE affix on an item. The tier is the rarity within the affix and it can branch off many many times depending on how lucky of a roll you got.

Rarity of the actual items would determine how deep they can go within the tiers of the affixes and branches not the amount of affixes you can get.

Rarities (All rarities can roll a minimum of 4 affixes and a maximum of 8 but finding 7 or 8 affixes items would be extremely rare):

Common: T1
Uncommon: T1-T2
Magic: T1-T3
Rare: T1-T4
Legendary: T1-T5
Mythic: T1-T6
Artifact: T1-T7
Godly: T1-T8

So a common item can only roll T1 affixes, meaning the very start of a branch BUT they can get 4-8 affixes total depending on how lucky you are. Which would make ALL rarities useful but higher rarities more sought after since they have a higher potential from branching.

-NEXT- [Let’s talk SET ITEMS!]

Set items AS A RARITY is a mistake. Why? Look at Diablo 3. ONLY set items in the chest slot matter. ONLY set items in the helmet slot matter. So why do other non-set legendaries exist in those slots? (Im aware of zDPS)

This issue isn’t just a Diablo 3 issue. It’s an every ARPG that follows this path issue. Set items are fine but not as an entire rarity.

Here is the current solution that ALL ARPGs need to implement:

1.)Sets are APPLIED to items of your choice
OR (I prefer option 1)
2.)Any item rarity can roll as a set.

Let’s say we have a set called “Griswolds Legacy”. Well, I just found an epic pair of gloves with nice stats I want to keep. Bring the epic gloves to Griswold with some rare token or a large sum of currency, whatever the individual games system wants and VOILA! We have Griswold Set gloves.

[Overall]

Loot is very important in ARPGs (And even MMORPG’s as far as I am concerned). The aesthetics of having color coded rarities has always been awesome. Finding that top notch rarity with a loot sound or beam of light. It’s like winning the lottery.

To bring those aesthetics to the next level, we need more innovation with the items themselves. We need systems where all the item “rarities” have a place. Think of it like a sandbox loot system. Path of Exile SORT OF has that but not really. The currency system of PoE is sandbox. Why? Because it has value even at level 1 and you can find it at level 1. We need sandbox item systems where you can theoretically find a sick item at any level but its extremely rare. The example system I described above, imagine “Artifact” item rarity to be as rare as an exalted orb but can drop at any level. Imagine “Godly” tier has the rarity of a Mirror of Kalandria but can drop at any level.

And lastly, an example of a ultra rare item that you can find at level 1.

[GODLY Templar Shield]

[(Affix1) T6] 50 Strength + 5% Increased Strength + 7% Crushing Blow + 10% Chance of Might Aura on hit + 2.5% Life Leech + 25% Increased Damage at Max Health

[(Affix2) T6] 50 Block Rating + 14% Increased Chance to Block + 5% Health Gain on Block + 10% Chance of Prayer Aura on Block + 25% Chance on Block to Deal Crushing Blow Retaliate Damage + 10% Chance on Block to Retaliate with an Extra Attack

[(Affix3) T4] 7% Attack Speed + 4% Crushing Blow + 5% Chance of Double Attack + 1% Life Leech

[(Affix4) T4] 58 Vitality + 5% Increased Life + 1% Life Per Second + 10% Max Health Absorb Shield every 5 seconds

[(Affix5) T2] 55 Parry Rating + 25% Riposte Chance (Extra attack on Parry)

[(Affix6) T2] 57 Thorns Rating + 20% Thorns Leech

Four levels of rarity:
1.) Item Rarity: In this example, we got the rarest item rarity.
2.) Amount of Affixes: All items can roll 4-8 affixes but 7 and 8 are extremely rare.
3.) Tier of individual affixes. (High rarity can go up to Tier 8 but its very rare)
4.) The branches of the tiered affix.

I think this is only a lack of understanding of the item generation system... These are not bad ideas. It's actually how it work.

"

1.) Item Rarity: Only determines what tier of affix you can go up to and is not guarenteed. Its a potential.

Common: T1
Uncommon: T1-T2
Magic: T1-T3
Rare: T1-T4
Legendary: T1-T5
Mythic: T1-T6
Artifact: T1-T7
Godly: T1-T8

Imagine higher rarities of affixes within the item branch off and have affixes within the affix if you hit a certain rarity.

Imagine higher rarities of actual items just means a bigger pool of affixes.

Itemlevel. Godly items are level 85-86, thes can roll ultra-rare influence mod or t1 life... Withc also mean more diversity for these items. Itembases gives bette stats, but can also roll better affixes : influence / double influence / Itemlevel...

Take a look at that : https://poedb.tw/us/mod.php?cn=Gloves&an=dex_armour
Indigest, but as you can see, tiering, branches with rarities and item base conditions... Don't use neversink item filter, learn this mess youself, make your filter. You'll slowly understand this"hidden item rarity" system. This system should be made more clear anyway...

"

Here is the current solution that ALL ARPGs need to implement:

1.)Sets are APPLIED to items of your choice
OR (I prefer option 1)
2.)Any item rarity can roll as a set.

Chill. This is not D3. There is 2-3 set in the game, from bad to useless, at least as a set (farrul chest...), and most of them are 2 items. Set rolling as items ? This is kinda the case with items asking for shaper / elder items or full-sets (marks, disintegrator, eternity). Poe use Uniques, not sets. They are designed to offer specifics game-changing mods witch cannot be rolled normally for balance sake. The need for resist / life prevent you from using a full unique build anyway. (ok technically not true, but fuck it)



That being said...

"

ARPG itemization hasn’t innovated past Diablo 2 from the year 2000. It’s 2020 and we need more creative item system innovations.

True.

"

-Just take a look at white items and blue items. I know that’s arbitrary but you know what I mean. In what ARPG do white items and blue items have meaning besides being some form of vendor fodder? So my question is, why do they even exist? Every item should have a value. (Value as in, it’s used in the game systems somehow, even at high end gameplay)

This is one of the 3 big sticks in the ass of Chris Wilson right now, the other two being trade and crafting system for casuals. The 3 problems are deeply entwined and messing with one can completely shatter any of the three other systems.

It's... complicated. Poe IS anyway.

ARPG Gamer hate innovation and change and they have illogical and unreasonable desire´s. It doesn´t matter in the slightest how a rarity is called or that all rarity´s have to be usefull, that´s what the therm rarity implies anyway´s.

A true innovation would be, to remove ""looting"" completly and make evrything craftable, because ""looting"" is highly dissruptive to the core gameplay of action-rpg´s. You have to stop for looting for a 0,0001% chance of a realy good item that you may don´t even need for your charakter.

"

Pwnzors87 wrote:

A true innovation would be, to remove ""looting"" completly and make evrything craftable, because ""looting"" is highly dissruptive to the core gameplay of action-rpg´s. You have to stop for looting for a 0,0001% chance of a realy good item that you may don´t even need for your charakter.

You, sir, have just turned on the light bulb i needed in an ongoing game project i have been developing. Thank you!

Im not saying my random idea was good or the one that should be "next gen" loot.

Pretty much just saying LOOT SYSTEMS havent been innovated since Diablo 2.

Path of Exile is no exception. EVERY ARPG has not innovated.

They changed the look and the feel but the same system has been used since Diablo 2.


We need real innovation with loot. Something that makes a game last a very long time with how awesome just the loot is. A game where the LOOT comes first and everything else comes after.


The currency system in PoE is the only thing I can say is "different" but its part of the same item system following the same design.

I imagine u spent a few hours writing that, but.. for what purpose? U think all the ggg team gonna gather together to read, discuss it and make it live? Ok, let's hold our breath

I think the mod just gonna check if something rude or offensive here and the topic gonna be forgotten

Since you brought up Wow and companies attempting to mimic it to take part in their success...


I was an active member when SWG completely revamped everything to turn their niche market MMO into more or less a WoW clone with SW skins. I'm pretty sure the SWG "Exodus" has served as an example of what not to do since.

Innovation is risky and doesn't always lead to success.

Look at Half-Life, one of the most innovative games of its time and despite the success of it's sequel, Half-Life 3 never materialized even with that success and the demand for it.

Kill waves of "faceless" minions, see lots of mostly junk loot drop and occasionally find something nice has pretty much been the standard for an arpg style game. If it's too rewarding, people hit their goals and stop. If it's too unrewarding people just stop.

More tiers and more affixes, to make sure you'll never get a decent item.
Over last 7 year I've found 5 (Five) 5xT1 (not even 6xT1) items that were actually usable.
At this point I'm sure it would be better if monsters drop alteration shards instead.
I'd say this "more crap" loot system doesn't solve anything.

I think the most annoying shit is that high tier items can roll low tier mods. I'd prefer lower drop rates and perhaps also fewer possible mods per item but a system like this:

Common: T1
Uncommon: T1-T2
Magic: T1-T3
Rare: T2-T4
Legendary: T3-T5
Mythic: T4-T6
Artifact: T5-T7
Godly: T6-T8


I also think mods should be much more item type specific than they are now, thus reducing the chance of useless mods on an item.

GGG innovated the system in similar way as you propose, someone already explainted it above.

Ilvl = allows to roll higher tiers of affixes
Influence = works like branches and can have multi-mod options in it
Additionally we have exclusive poll of affixes like fossils or pyramid ones.

Together with synthesis and corruption you can also change the implicits on the item (with is the build in affix to the base of item).
There is no set system in POE, only a few items that synergy with each other. Though set system is bad for the game, it force people to wear them for maximum power and remove the decision in build process.

Someone suggested to remove the looting from the ARPG.
This is also bad idea, the main factor of APRG is the loot and the addiction to hazard.
If you could craft everything predictably it would make the game shallow, even more grindy and simply boring on the long run.


Personaly I have been working with a design of new loot system for my friends game. He probably will never finish it so I can share the main outline.

1)There are no magic, rare, unique items in the game. There are also no predetermined unique items. Instead you have only tiers of affixes - somesort of rarity in them. So you can roll 3 unique affixes on a single item if lucky enough.

2)You drop not only ready equipment, but mostly components where each would have 2 random affixes. This will remove all the white/blue items problem.
You can use those components (3-4 of them) to craft an equipment item having all their affixes. You can also destroy items to retreive the components, but only partialy, to keep your progress steady.

3)You can upgrade tiers of affixes, but by limited amount of times per item and randomly. You know how POE is full of neat items, but after few months of league the market is satured with them and they are actualy not worth much at all? Exactly those items could be traded for a currency/points that could be used to up tiers of your used items. This would also introduce slow but steady progression to people that are unlucky with drops. Because the better items you have, the harder and harder is to get an upgrade for it and you burn out as a plyer.

4)There would be abnormaly small chance to have super-tier of affixes drop - like wining a lottery. You could be the only person with such affix on server. That would improve the hazard addiction by giving more power and unpredictible drops. Combined with point number 2, you could always retrieve this rare component from your items. So its always usefull and never wasted. Your new family hairloom?

5)There would be also unique or godly-tier of affixes that are...generated randomly. Meaning you could find something completly unique in the game that nobody else have. For even more unpredictible outcomes, even more hazard addiction and infinite-possiblity in build making. Imagine a spirit shield that would allowed you to summon a totem, that could spawn and buff other spell totems with random spells. And only you had such a shield in the whole server. Possiblities are endless, ofcourse everything depends on the RNG algorithm.