Diablo 3 OPEN BETA

want a beta so bad!!!!! diablo 3 beta sucked so hard!!!

what Diablo 3 lacks is... PoE's skilltree

@ Charan's rune system.

Ok, first of all:


These are a couple of critique points.
Some of them overlap in some areas, but I'm seperating them to hopefully make it as clear as possible.
They aren't all equally strong / big either, I'm just naming what I could think of.
These points purely critique the system as it is described by charan, and do not account for any potential additions or fixes that could theoretically be made to the aforementioned system.

Finally, this post is gargantuan, or, to me it is anyway.
If you are going to reply, please do so per point so it stays clear what you're addressing.


Point 1 (Rune restriction):

This is obviously a system that aims to make the early game more diverse in choice, and wants you to be able to have 'your' build right from the start.
Now, this system is fine, but only if you know what you want to have. Let's assume you get one rune every 2 levels from level 10 (not completely accurate math, but just assume this). The first 6 runes you choose, are all 'fire' runes. So you're now level 22 with 6 fire runes, and you can use every ability you get with a fire rune at all times. This is great for you, you get your fire build fully ready (apart from the to be unlocked abilities) by level 22. However, what if you take someone who isn't sure about the type of runes he wants to use?
He too picks the 6 first runes as fire runes.
But then he finds out that he actually does not like fire runes on most of his abilities. Let's say he realises he'd like all 'water' runes better.
He'd then have to wait for 12 whole levels until he has a water rune for every ability, and will be level 34 by then. What if he then realises that he doesn't like water either? He has to continue once more for quite a few levels while using runes that he doesn't even like to use on most of his abilities.
So to summarise this point: It's great for people who have a certain build in mind and want to stick to it, but at the same time it's potentially quite bad for people who make the wrong decisions, as they are forced to have less fun in a decent part of the earlygame (and this system is about improving the early game after all).


Point 2 (Learning abilities):

Since this system uses the same runes for all the abilties, an issue arises.
When you unlock a new ability, you immediately unlock 1 or multiple of it's rune variations along with it.
What this means is that you immediately use runes on the ability, and have no time to get a good feel for how the skill actually works. With the 'real' system you are given a few levels until you even unlock the first rune for an ability, so that you fully know what it does first. This is not a big issue per se, but it's not a strong point of the system either.


Point 3 (Rune exploration):

Let's say the very first 5 runes you take are one of every type. What does this mean?
This means that you will automatically have all the rune options for every ability you have, and all the abilities you can get in the future, right at the moment you aquire the ability. Why is this not good? Well, let's say you get a new ability, and try out all 5 combinations immediately.
Now, for the rest of the game, nothing about that ability will ever change. You have seen every possibility of that ability, and your options for that ability will stay the same for the rest of the game. There is no progression.
Ofcourse, not everyone will immediately unlock 1 of every rune, but I believe most people would be very tempted to do it, and would thus ruin part of their gaming experience.


Point 4 (Rune creativity):

As I mentioned before, this system is automatically bound by the 5 rune types, that are the same for every ability.
What's the disadvantage of having the same rune types for every ability? Well, it limits developer creativity.
If an ability can only have a couple of preset rune options, that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the devs to develop cool runed abilities. Of course, there are plenty of abilities you can still pull off, but even then, you still have to match the rune's theme. So, a fire rune has to do fire damage, water has to do water, etc.
If every ability has it's own runes, there's absolute freedom in what kind of ability you can develop, as well as absolute freedom for the type of damage that ability will do etc.
Not to mention that it (imo) simply doesn't make a lot of sense to tie every class to the same runes as well.
After all, why would a voodoo Witch Doctor be tied to the same type of runes as a holy Monk?



These were all the points I could think of so far, I hope you can understand my babbling. :)

And yes, I know; 'Ability'. I didn't know whether to refer to them as skills or abilities, I just went with abilities. Don't like it? Don't read it. :P

May this post forever exclude me from being called:
'someone who doesn't put any thought into his posts'. :P

"

tagek wrote:

Point 1 (Rune restriction):

This is obviously a system that aims to make the early game more diverse in choice, and wants you to be able to have 'your' build right from the start.
Now, this system is fine, but only if you know what you want to have. Let's assume you get one rune every 2 levels from level 10 (not completely accurate math, but just assume this). The first 6 runes you choose, are all 'fire' runes. So you're now level 22 with 6 fire runes, and you can use every ability you get with a fire rune at all times. This is great for you, you get your fire build fully ready (apart from the to be unlocked abilities) by level 22. However, what if you take someone who isn't sure about the type of runes he wants to use?
He too picks the 6 first runes as fire runes.
But then he finds out that he actually does not like fire runes on most of his abilities. Let's say he realises he'd like all 'water' runes better.
He'd then have to wait for 12 whole levels until he has a water rune for every ability, and will be level 34 by then. What if he then realises that he doesn't like water either? He has to continue once more for quite a few levels while using runes that he doesn't even like to use on most of his abilities.
So to summarise this point: It's great for people who have a certain build in mind and want to stick to it, but at the same time it's potentially quite bad for people who make the wrong decisions, as they are forced to have less fun in a decent part of the earlygame (and this system is about improving the early game after all).

Agreed, and I am so glad you see what I meant now. I have a simple solution for this, and part of me can't believe you didn't see it coming. Respec. :P Some sort of NPC that, for perhaps a gold cost, allows you to buy and sell runes within your unlocked rank. I would naturally increase the cost of runes the more you trade them in -- just like respeccing in, say, Titan Quest. But I believe a fairly simple rune respec/trade-in system could solve this first issue. See, I'm not cruel to players who don't plan ahead. I respecced like a mofo in TQ. I really did.

"

tagek wrote:

Point 2 (Learning abilities):

Since this system uses the same runes for all the abilties, an issue arises.
When you unlock a new ability, you immediately unlock 1 or multiple of it's rune variations along with it.
What this means is that you immediately use runes on the ability, and have no time to get a good feel for how the skill actually works. With the 'real' system you are given a few levels until you even unlock the first rune for an ability, so that you fully know what it does first. This is not a big issue per se, but it's not a strong point of the system either.

I can understand this, but my counter would be making sure the base skill has an appeal of its own. This comes back to the point that runes do not upgrade the base skills, they merely modify them. It was always the plan, I believe, to ensure that the unruned skill was just as viable as the runed one. In other words, 'unruned' would be on level ground with the runed versions of the skill.

"

tagek wrote:

Point 3 (Rune exploration):

Let's say the very first 5 runes you take are one of every type. What does this mean?
This means that you will automatically have all the rune options for every ability you have, and all the abilities you can get in the future, right at the moment you aquire the ability. Why is this not good? Well, let's say you get a new ability, and try out all 5 combinations immediately.
Now, for the rest of the game, nothing about that ability will ever change. You have seen every possibility of that ability, and your options for that ability will stay the same for the rest of the game. There is no progression.
Ofcourse, not everyone will immediately unlock 1 of every rune, but I believe most people would be very tempted to do it, and would thus ruin part of their gaming experience.

I'm sorry, I can't account for players' lack of willpower, and I don't agree with the idea that it is the game creator's onus to compensate for that. That said, we'd seen every 'visual' skill in D2 by thirty as well. Let us assume that base D3 skills in my system don't stop unlocking at 30. Oh, now that changes things, doesn't it? I'd have no problem with that if we had rune options of this nature earlier.

But yes, if you want to see all of a skill's variants early, I don't see the problem with that. It still won't be 'realised' until level 60 when you unlock the max rank.

"

tagek wrote:

Point 4 (Rune creativity):

As I mentioned before, this system is automatically bound by the 5 rune types, that are the same for every ability.
What's the disadvantage of having the same rune types for every ability? Well, it limits developer creativity.
If an ability can only have a couple of preset rune options, that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the devs to develop cool runed abilities. Of course, there are plenty of abilities you can still pull off, but even then, you still have to match the rune's theme. So, a fire rune has to do fire damage, water has to do water, etc.
If every ability has it's own runes, there's absolute freedom in what kind of ability you can develop, as well as absolute freedom for the type of damage that ability will do etc.
Not to mention that it (imo) simply doesn't make a lot of sense to tie every class to the same runes as well.
After all, why would a voodoo Witch Doctor be tied to the same type of runes as a holy Monk?

I know we used monikers like 'crimson' and 'alabaster' and each had some basic elemental implication, but even under the pre-patch 13 style, they affected skills differently. The crimson rune might have changed, say, magic weapon to 'fire damage' but I don't believe it changed every other skill you slotted it into to fire damage as well. And even if it did, it wouldn't have to under my system. The runes might as well just be called 1,2,3,4 and 5. I think Blizzard were aiming for some sort of thematic consistency, though, and I greatly admired that, but something as blatant as 'this rune converts all damage to fire regardless of the skill to which it is attached' was never their intent, nor would it be mine.

In short, the 'crimson rune' could be renamed 'rune 1' and do completely different things depending on which skill it modified.

"

tagek wrote:

These were all the points I could think of so far, I hope you can understand my babbling. :)

And yes, I know; 'Ability'. I didn't know whether to refer to them as skills or abilities, I just went with abilities. Don't like it? Don't read it. :P

May this post forever exclude me from being called:
'someone who doesn't put any thought into his posts'. :P

Indeed, that was a grand effort on your behalf. Skills, abilities. Doesn't really make a difference as long as we're on the same page.

...Now, where's alcovitch to really tear my idea to shreds? ;)

One thing I definitely 'dislike' about this forum is that the position of your sentences isn't the same in the 'creation' window as it is in your actual final post.
There are a lot of sentences cut in weird places, but I cba to correct them atm.

(Yes, I know there's a preview system, but it's still a very clunky process to put all the sentences right)

Point 1:

I did see it coming. My reply was merely, as I said, to your post without any additional things like respec added, since you didn't mention that in your post.

That said, respeccing is a very hard thing to balance.
Especially with a system like this, where you can have any rune at any time, it creates issues.
A player could just switch between builds on a whim by using the respec, being full fire one second, and full frost the other. It just gives you the option to basically experience every possible rune combination from the get go. If you make respec expensive, it feels too punishing for people who made mistakes, but if you make it too cheap, the aforementioned happens and people just switch whenever, eliminating the need to even choose particular runes in the first place.

Point 2:

Well my point was more about you getting too many ability variants at once. This doesn't ease the player into it, and forces him to just 'learn' all the skills at once instead of letting him have the time to try them out one by one.


Point 3:

The thing is, it's not about willpower.
A player's natural reaction will be to check out all the awesome rune variants. But as a result he will spoil much of the surprise for himself throughout the rest of the game, and, just like I said in point 2, be a little overwhelmed by options whenever he gets a new ability.

(kinda similar to what I mentioned about point 1)


Point 4:

Well yeah, that is true.
But what's also an issue, and I didn't really adress this, is how easily recognisable the ability runes are.
If all abilities and all classes use the same runes, it would be hard to learn which rune is tied to which effect, especially since the name doesn't necessarily give all that many hints about what the rune does.
If every rune has an individual name you will remember them more easily, especially if the name ties in to the specific effect of the rune. A good example is the 'Clobber' rune for bash, which adds a stun chance to the ability.

"

tomi555 wrote:

what Diablo 3 lacks is... PoE's skilltree

definitly!!!

"

Achilleios wrote:

"

tomi555 wrote:

what Diablo 3 lacks is... PoE's skilltree

definitly!!!

You don't even have a beta key >.<

I think part of why I let this one slide is I saw an impasse coming, but let's give it a shot anyway:

"

Tagek wrote:

Point 1: [Rune Restriction]

I did see it coming. My reply was merely, as I said, to your post without any additional things like respec added, since you didn't mention that in your post.

That said, respeccing is a very hard thing to balance.
Especially with a system like this, where you can have any rune at any time, it creates issues.
A player could just switch between builds on a whim by using the respec, being full fire one second, and full frost the other. It just gives you the option to basically experience every possible rune combination from the get go. If you make respec expensive, it feels too punishing for people who made mistakes, but if you make it too cheap, the aforementioned happens and people just switch whenever, eliminating the need to even choose particular runes in the first place.

Point 1: [Rune Restriction]


And what precisely is wrong with some punishment for making mistakes? And let's not look at it as punishment so much as pre-emptive incentive not to make mistakes. Deterrents, if you will. This goes well beyond the confines of D3 -- if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn. And it's not a mistake if there isn't some negative outcome. The problem with PoE in this regard is that you aren't afforded sufficient means of correcting your mistake quickly. Instead, you have to slowly work towards fixing it. Or, better yet, just don't make it in the first place. Do your work beforehand. I've said it elsewhere: only an idiot jumps in head-first without at least finding out how deep the water is. D3, as it stands now, is definitely for idiots in that respect. You jump in head-first because the starting pool is made of jello. ;) The olympic pool of Hell and the English Channel of Inferno might be truly punishing, but I don't expect too many people to get there -- not unless the jello pool somehow gets them ready for real water, real challenges, etc. It may. We shall see.

Point is, respeccing needs a cost. Some elements thereof can be free (be it the gem stat system of D3 or the skill gem system of Poe), but at some point, there needs to be a cost for dramatically changing your character, else said character will have no real character at all.

"

Tagek wrote:

Point 2: [Learning Abilities]

Well my point was more about you getting too many ability variants at once. This doesn't ease the player into it, and forces him to just 'learn' all the skills at once instead of letting him have the time to try them out one by one.

Point 2: [Learning Abilities]


Actually, you only get one variant at a time. You just have to choose. It's really no different to the tried-and-true method of multiple trees for different elements/styles. You have a set five trees for each skill with the system I've proposed. They're not as clearcut as fire/ice/lightning etc, but they're definitely distinct. The only difference is you can jump between the trees if you want. Don't like your crimson-runed spell at level 10? Gain a level, grab a rank 1 alabaster, give that a go, and stick the crimson in a different skill.

"

Tagek wrote:

Point 3: [Rune Exploration]

The thing is, it's not about willpower.
A player's natural reaction will be to check out all the awesome rune variants. But as a result he will spoil much of the surprise for himself throughout the rest of the game, and, just like I said in point 2, be a little overwhelmed by options whenever he gets a new ability.

(kinda similar to what I mentioned about point 1)

Point 3: [Rune Exploration]


Possibly so, but let's assume you get one rank 1 rune per level or 2 from level 10 onwards. yes, you can have all five by 20 and try them all out in your various skills, but this also means that you can't use all five in all your skills. There is still some selection required, and definitely some pre-planning desired. You might hit 20 and decide that you like 2 crimson runed skills, 3 alabaster. But if you've just picked up one of each type until then, you're sort of screwed. And you were screwed by your 'spoiling'. But then there'd be a rune trader (essentially, a respeccer for runes) to help you deal with this this.

If you're going to argue that saving higher end runes for later to prevent 'spoiling', then you've proven me right in that where once the rune types were on equal footing, now there is a definite hierarchy between them; if you get a crimson rune at 10 and an alabaster at 30, all instinct tells you that the level 30 one will be better. This goes against what Blizzard promised in the first place.

"

Tagek wrote:

Point 4: [Rune Creativity]

Well yeah, that is true.
But what's also an issue, and I didn't really adress this, is how easily recognisable the ability runes are.
If all abilities and all classes use the same runes, it would be hard to learn which rune is tied to which effect, especially since the name doesn't necessarily give all that many hints about what the rune does.
If every rune has an individual name you will remember them more easily, especially if the name ties in to the specific effect of the rune. A good example is the 'Clobber' rune for bash, which adds a stun chance to the ability.

[Rune Creativity]

The moment you socket a rune it changes the name of the skill. All you'd need to do is have, say, stick a crimson rune in Magic Missile and it gets renamed to 'Fire bolt'. Some base reference to the base skill is fine (an icon or whatever), but you'd have to be a bit of a simpleton to not know your own skillset as you build it. And in the 'skill's screen, you can be more elaborate. I really don't think the base rune has to be obvious in its effect on each skill prior to socketing. On the other hand, you could just have a mouse-over each base skill that pops-up each of the five rune effects. There were definitely ways this could have been implemented.