Dual Wield vs One Hand and Shield

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Ziiyo wrote:

But as far as I can tell DW is just getting hit hard to force people down the 2h play style.

Pathetic GGG

maybe they're hitting DW hard because it was by far and large the most overpowered way to play the game. and GGG values balance.

unlike 90% of the people on these forums, who just don't want their builds to get nerfed. and would literally rather the ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME get buffed. the same people that probably cry and whine about powercreep

funny how it works.


good. if DW is actually "dead", which it isn't and never will be for certain combinations, then just go sword/board. nothing wrong with that

The best use of shield was by caster & summoners. Melee builds with shield are too weak often have weak life pool or weak damage or both

well that isn't going to be the case anymore in comparison, is it?

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xMustard wrote:

maybe they're hitting DW hard because it was by far and large the most overpowered way to play the game. and GGG values balance.

I usually agree with you pretty often. And even when I don't, I still understand your point of view. Here, I do not. At all. Not even close.

Was DW the best path for a melee player? Sure. Was it "overpowered" versus spell alternatives? "Max block ES on hit whatever"? No, it wasn't. Melee has NEVER been "overpowered" as a whole. It came pretty close with statsticks, but there were STILL better spell alternatives.

People are too quick using the word "overpowered" when it comes to melee, without thinking about all alternatives. And we HAVE to think about ALL alternatives before we use that word.

That's why I'm afraid after reading the manifesto. I'm still hoping that they will give me more than one reason to choose 2H over other builds based on balance and not preference. I still hope that they would give a HC character, pushing for 100, a reason or two to bring a 2H build into the choice of what to play this league. I still hope that 2H builds will get the speed needed to defend Chris' own words; "A faster build is a better build".

TL;DR
Dual-wielding may have been too strong versus 2H builds, but "the most overpowered way to play the game"? Hardly.

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xMustard wrote:

maybe they're hitting DW hard because it was by far and large the most overpowered way to play the game. and GGG values balance.

You've been here long enough to know better than to say that. I'm sure they try to but I recall far more nerfs than buffs since starting my PoE journey in Abyss.

How was a 20% more multiplier OP? You gave up a shield and your attacks factor in said weapon, no more stat stick setup so you had to invest significantly in those weapons or utilize something like hollow palm and completely build around that mechanic.

Molten strike practically died the first time they "adjusted" it - so the second time they hit it again wasn't balancing, more of an evisceration.

Cyclone is the only saving grace but its not so much melee as it is a slow moving aoe effect with stun immunity built in.

yes sorry i mostly meant the most overpowered way for attack skills.

obviously there were other options that would get you to a similar power level at a much cheaper cost and opportunity cost, however i still stick with the position that dual wield melee still had the most overpowered builds in the game.

again, i think its obvious to exclude stupid unintended shit like herald stacking, but otherwise i still think the above statement is true.

paradoxica and saviour essentially take anything to do with attack builds and pumps it up to 11.
specifically calling things "melee" now is pretty disingenuous already so i'll try to refrain from that.

but these builds can pretty easily pump out 30-50 million shaper dps and just instantly kill the game.
actually there are a ton of dual wield builds that just do this even without the super juiced uniques slotted in.

but for attack skills in general it was ALWAYS better to dual wield. there were no downsides essentially at all. you had better passives, you had block like a shield, you had massive damage and atk spd boost and the additional stats from a second weapon.
it was semi-addressed with stat sticks being removed but clearly more was needed


the change to two handers needs to be numerous and not just to the 2hers themselves. so yes dual wield needed to be addressed, not just for the good of the game and any other playstyle but also for 2hers to enter the game.

i do like the idea of switching roles, essentially to big slower hits to 2 handers and fast little hits to dual wielding. this is more on par with what the game was like when it went live and i really like that GGG are trying to reel PoEs rapid chaotic powercreep and stuff back to those times.

a massive QOL would obviously be having the attack animation separate from your attack speed, so it was the same on a single skill regardless of how you choose to wield it, and attack speed only dictated how fast you could repeat it, not how fast you "casted" the attack itself.
this is currently what makes really really slow attack speed feel like absolute garbage.
no idea if that could even happen though

This seems rather simple to me. You'll DW if you have 2 unique weapons that have some synergy together, or you just want to push the attack speed of the build further. While gaining some chance to block.

You'll use a shield if there is a unique one that assists your build or you just want a slot of extra defenses.

While I would like to see some more dual wield skills in the game, it's in a good spot. Losing 20% More damage isn't going to make a break your build. There are still going to be great options for strong DW builds to use.

the other thing to keep in mind is that 2 handed weapons needed a change before poe 4.0 anyway

once skill gems are changed and there are no longer 6 socket and 6 linked items, one of the main benefits (which isn't much of one anymore) is gone.

But the "real" issue isn't that dual-wield outshines, but that two-handed never really provides adequate power to justify the loss of potential stats in that second weapon slot.

The ideology of two-handed weapons hitting slower but doing more damage cannot work when attack speed is a major factor in deciding final output.

Like the last melee pass, they made slight adjustments to the numbers, but the attack speed reduction on virtually all of the skills kept them from seeing extensive use. I didn't have extensive melee experience to know whether or not that speed reduction was always there, but it's probably the biggest contributor to cyclone's popularity, aside from the mobility.