Double damage and DOT

Hello,

as far as i know double damage does not affect dot damage at all.
FOr the upcoming league that would be a bit of a downer I`d say.

Is there a reason for that?

thx for help

your statement is not entirely true.

double damage already does affect the DOT in most cases, as DOT is often scaled from the initial hit damage.

Here to say that double damage does not and should not work with DoTs from e.g. Vortex or Essence Drain. The double damage will apply to the initial hit but not to the DoT itself, and that's perfectly fine. We don't want a situation where you can stack double damage with skill effect duration and snapshot a huge ED or Vortex DoT. With mechanics like EE and EO in place, skills like Vortex would be off the limits.

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Monkeyface wrote:

your statement is not entirely true.

double damage already does affects DOT in most cases, as DOT is often scaled from the initial hit damage.

Are you sure about that? Since DoT ailments only care abut the base FLAT damage after conversion of the hit, crit strike roll, and only their specific own modifiers, it would also be perfectly possible that Double Damage does absolutely nothing to them.

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The damage increase is applied after all other modifiers

So it comes after base flat damage and all the other modifiers are already calculated in the damage calculation scheme and therefor might be not related in any form with the base flat damage of the DoT and might be doing absolutely nothing just like OP said.

But I am not entirely sure here.

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Monkeyface wrote:

your statement is not entirely true.

double damage already does affects DOT in most cases, as DOT is often scaled from the initial hit damage.

I`m pretty sure that I researched this and came to the conclusion that double damage only scales the hit damage and has no effect on dots.

Berserker and Melee skills have a lot of double damage options and i can not really see why that should not count towards bleed builds at all.
(or other ailments)

I also think that Double damage should scale the base DoT damage just like critical strike does. I only found out some months ago that it does not do it when trying to get some extra ignite damage with an infernal blow zerker.

I never checked the wiki before about double damage since it seemed so glass clear and intuitive and was blown away when I read that it probably has absolutely no effect at all on ailment damage.

Reasoning about ailments, no matter if dots or status ailments comined double damage and this damage calculation scheme https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Receiving_damage is rocket science anyway.

Other example where it all doesnt make any fucking sense is frostbreath and double damage against chilled enemies.

Assuming that the damage calculation scheme has no backtracking, runs in strict sequence without ever looking back:

Double damage is rolled after all modifiers, which means it comes immediately after Step 1.3 of the damage calculation scheme.

Chilling enemies is about cold damage dealt, which is step 5 of the damage calculation.

Minding those statements, it should be impossible to deal double damage on first hit with a frost breath, since the chill is inflicted AFTER the double damage check.

But anyone who played with a frostbreath knows that the first hit already can apply chill and deal double damage at the same time, since dealing double damage on first hit already is a quite noticeable thing. So yea something is wrong here.




edit: could be that double damage is actually rolled after step 5 (damage DEALT/taken) instead of after 1.3 since "DEAL double damage" SOUNDS pretty related to "damage dealt/taken".

Then it could make sense again.

The footnote in the wiki for "The damage increase is applied after all other modifiers should link to an explaination by Nick but links to thread where nothing is said about it anywhere. Very good.

Are with "all other modifiers" all the global increased/more modifiers meant aka step 1.3 or everything on the whole damage calculation that modifies damage dealt/taken in any way or form aka the whole damage calculation before ehp loss?

Jesus Christ ... I guess Double Damage roll comes after step 5 and after the ailment infliction, which comes also after step 5, because else Frostbreath dealing double damage on first hit consistently wouldnt make sense.

Time to start a little discussion on the wiki damage calculation page.

OK made sense of this mess by logic, edited the wiki, started a discussion, rate. Feel free to correct me.

https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Receiving_damage

My reasoning is in the discussion page.

Like has anyone an idea how all this shit really works at low level game logic? Even Openarl ignored the double damage mod in PoB with Berserker Warcry at least.

Wiki doesnt know it, PoB doesnt know it, its ridiculous.

I try my best to get it right for sparing other people my headache but there is no guarantee whatever that I am right.

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Monkeyface wrote:

your statement is not entirely true.

double damage already does affect the DOT in most cases, as DOT is often scaled from the initial hit damage.

Double Damage does NOT effect the DOT in most cases. The only Cases where the DOT is directly scaled with the initial hit are Ignite Builds and Poison Builds.

Poison it can help a little bit because most poison builds scale not only the duration but also Speed so you stack as many poisons as possible to make the best damage. Thus why most high damage poison builds have a bit of ramp up to make the best damage. Double Damage also thrives from Speed so this is about the only case where Double Damage would do much for a DOT setup.

Ignite it does little because you dont care about stacking you just case about hitting as hard as possible once and scaling the majority of your DOT with DOT, DOT Multi Scaling, and fire, elemental, ect. Unless of course you can get close to 100% Chance at Double Damage which isn't possible really and getting any meaningful amount would most likely be at the cost of other better ways of scaling the DOT.

Everything else DOT like Vortex, ED, RF. ect it does absolutely nothing. Double Damage is something builds that hit a lot of times fast make the most use of. Like Zerkers especially ones taking the Warcry node since it gives a nice chunk by deafult. Thats why the Double Damage mod was moved from the Rage nodes to the Warcry nodes because it took away choices because the Rage Nodes were just too good with that extra Double Damage. Especially combined with Blitz. Now you choose Rage or Warcry healing+Double Damage.

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Demonoz wrote:

The only Cases where the DOT is directly scaled with the initial hit are Ignite Builds and Poison Builds.

I'm not vouching for this, but let us presume you are correct.

What about bleeding?

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Demonoz wrote:

Ignite it does little because you dont care about stacking you just case about hitting as hard as possible once and scaling the majority of your DOT with DOT, DOT Multi Scaling, and fire, elemental, ect. Unless of course you can get close to 100% Chance at Double Damage which isn't possible really and getting any meaningful amount would most likely be at the cost of other better ways of scaling the DOT.

Because a chance to replace your only DOT on an enemy with one that deals Double Damage isn't good unless you're not replacing. Wait, wot?