2Hand Melee Slam skills vs Cyclone + Impale will it be fair comparison?

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sidtherat wrote:

Slams just like Strikes seem to be fixing the problem noone notices nor cares about

As noted above, problem is the Attack/Action speed. 2h are slow, very slow. problem is - you cannot make them 1.9aps because that simply looks dumb, yet until they are in fact 1.9+ - there is no point using them (if you aim at min-max). As long as 'first swing' depends on weapon's attack speed there is no hope of making non-cyclone 2h setups 'good'.

Even in Dota you have something to augment slow attacks
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Echo_Sabre

they just need to do enough damage/area to not be too disadvantaged compared to cyclones natural advantages, with old pulverise (ignoring that it buffed cyclone too) this was the OK, EQ/Icecrash etc were slow but hitting the entire screen had its advantages.

Its got potential with this new big fist gem but tbh were gonna have to wait for the numbers, EQ is too reliant on its helm enchant though they should probably baseline that ^^ just as a random comment

Also disagree with the comments that they need to be fast, aside from their negative animation changes where they make weapons go slow fast fast slow fast fast etc 2h need to have a different cadence to 1h or thematically they serve no purpose.

Hit hard hit once is the goal, just have to make them feel good in that niche, you tend to be OK once you hit ~ 3-4 APS it starts to feel fine.

Another problem is the ai is so simple in poe that any skill that moves around the enemy has a huge advantage. Rf also has this ease of dodging attacks as long as you arent standing still casting scroching ray.

so the new Warcries are in.

will they solve this issue? most probably not.

if these Warcries (yet another button to mash.. yet another key in the pianola keyboard) do what they promise one very specific part of the solution is solved: more damage on button

what is not being solved however is SPEED. speed not only affects DPS - this part Warcries might solve, extra burst without flasks sounds nice - but also safety. this part is not solved.

extra AOE also is not that great when you pay for it in movement speed. try the StormBind, it can LITERALLY cover two screens and delete them both but the clear speed is pretty underwhelming. same with 'solving' 2h issue with giving it more AOE and stopping there.

the key to 2h issue (and in general melee combat balance) is decoupling weapon base speed from the equation. 1.15 aps weapon should be slow to attack but should not make me auto-dead anytime i want to leap-slam away. right now both the 'jump away speed' and 'windup time' of slow weapons are simply dangerous

btw: these warcries.. i think game would do perfectly fine with 1 or 2 less, Ancestral Cry is 100% useless (even in trailer you can see that the flow of combat is broken when player waits for the cry to charge up) and Rallying Cry 'rework' just happily murdered any interaction with MOM

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sidtherat wrote:

Ancestral Cry is 100% useless (even in trailer you can see that the flow of combat is broken when player waits for the cry to charge up)

Cant agree more.

The Ancestral Call Cry seems redundant because Strike Skill users will have the AC support gem. And if i drop the AC gem for the AC Warcry for example i would definitely want a second Warcry with "real" use. But then i cant take the new Keystone for instant Warcries because of cooldown sharing.

The result is melee Strike Skills stay clunky.

Proposal to fix:

Ancestrall Call built in into Strike Skimls. So much issues fixed at once without big efforts.

Another fix that would give the new Ancestral Call Warcry a real use for Strike Skills: All Ancestors can hit the same target during Warcry duration.

None of the changes so far show that 2h melee will be any different from what it is now: sluggish, locked-up-in-place gameplay. With the way end-game bosses are, this is the easiest way to get yourself one-shot.

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zzang wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

Ancestral Cry is 100% useless (even in trailer you can see that the flow of combat is broken when player waits for the cry to charge up)

Cant agree more.

The Ancestral Call Cry seems redundant because Strike Skill users will have the AC support gem. And if i drop the AC gem for the AC Warcry for example i would definitely want a second Warcry with "real" use. But then i cant take the new Keystone for instant Warcries because of cooldown sharing.

The result is melee Strike Skills stay clunky.

Proposal to fix:

Ancestrall Call built in into Strike Skimls. So much issues fixed at once without big efforts.

Another fix that would give the new Ancestral Call Warcry a real use for Strike Skills: All Ancestors can hit the same target during Warcry duration.

or just stop with this dance-around-the-issue farce we are seeing on and on

strike skills HAVE to have 'splash' (or similar mechanic like Static Strike) AND an ability to actually hit a damn thing with current pace of the game and deficiencies of POE's engine

splash - i can deal with that, bows require GMP, that is ok

but targeting is a base mechanic, just like accurate reporting of current HP value or displaying the minimap. right now targeting in POE is in shoddy state of 'maybe, maybe, there is a chance'

just fix that already. get rid of 'weapon splash' - noone cares about that. make ALL attacks by default hit nearest enemy (or at least nearby enemies in a LARGE, WIDE cone - not this tiny sad joke of a rectangle we have now)

if that is fixed, you can start toying with +strikes, strike range and other fluff

oh, Ancestral Cry provides ARMOUR. WTF? the most useless base state in this game. stat that does like nothing unless stacked and you just dont stack it because you can get much better protection from various 'one trick wonders' GGG introduced over the years

even assuming it gives 1000 flat armour (and be real, it wont exceed 300) it is better to leave it unleveled for lower mana costs

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sidtherat wrote:

oh, Ancestral Cry provides ARMOUR. WTF? the most useless base state in this game. stat that does like nothing unless stacked and you just dont stack it because you can get much better protection from various 'one trick wonders' GGG introduced over the years

even assuming it gives 1000 flat armour (and be real, it wont exceed 300) it is better to leave it unleveled for lower mana costs

I think the fixation on Vaal Molten Shell with Armour isnt the optimal way to create diversity if this is the idea behind Ancestral Call providing armour.

They could rework Vaal Immortal Call finally which they wanted to do a year ago.
Reminder @ GGG: League players dont have a Vaal variant of Immortal Call. Its just caters even more into Vaal Molten Shell which creates a funnel into overused skills like Vaal Molten shell and reduces diversity by design.

Well now that we've seen the new Rigwald's Savagery, I think the answer is officially No.

I can't even imagine how nuts 75 rage Rite of Ruin Zerker is going to be with this thing and an offhand Foil (or Varunastra, or Saviour, etc), but I don't think the new 2h Slam Hype has a chance now.

it never had a chance

they would have to buff the damage by 50% or more to make 2h 'competetive'. judging by uniques showcased today - it is .5% more not 50% so it ends up in the garbage pile (yet again)

it never had a chance, not with current 'melee is attack speed' mechanic


That axe btw - Rage Support plus Saviour/Paradoxica. The bleeding sword is nice as well but.. it is a sword that is not a foil, who cares?