2Hand Melee Slam skills vs Cyclone + Impale will it be fair comparison?

Hello everyone,

Its the right time to provide some feedback about the announced 2Hand melee rework. I wanna question and discuss what can be done to improve (non-Cyclone) melee.

Lets take a first look at PoE history the last "Melee Rework" in 3.7 Legion League (also known as Cyclone League) created a new melee sub category called "Melee Strike" skills. The Melee rebalance patch introduced wide sweeping nerfs to Multistrike and obliterated Moltenstrike. While Cyclone was the absolute non plus ultra to be played. I will elaborate a bit more about Cyclone later.

Now we have another "Melee Rework" standing at the Door with slow hitting skills called "Slams". And im kind of afraid that the Devs are getting it wrong again. To showcase what went wrong the last time one needs to look at the game mechanics and how they are utilized by different Skills.

Cyclone for example have:

- 300% Attack Speed modifier with Cyclone. What does it mean for gameplay?
Impale Stacks take time for slower "Slam" skills to build up to get the damage benefits from the stacks. Cyclone on the other hand will have the maxed out Impale stacks up in less than one second due to its attack speed. Same is true for any other mechanics that has "X% chance to gain [insert effect] on hit" any Charge generation falls into that category as well for example Blitz Charges or Challenger Charges, hitting Life Leech Cap, Life Gain on hit - you name it. Almost every mechanic in this game benefits from very fast hitting skills instead of slow hitting ones.

- Stun Immunity while Channeling Cyclone. How does it compare to other skills?
For the most part at minimum one passive skill is safed by Cyclone's implicit stun immunity depending on the position of Unwavering Stance Keystone but usually its 3 or more skillpoints. At the same time there is no downside with Cyclone's implicit stun immunity while channeling by losing out Evade chance opposed to picking Unwavering Stance Keystone. Slow hitting skills like "Slam Skills" better pick Unwavering Stance or get Stun immunity from items and other interactions by paying opportunity costs to not get stunned during the swing and deal no damage and die instead.

- 360° Degree Area Damage with Cyclone while moving.
Obviously the skill can be compared to a damage aura that hit enemies around the character for double digit times per second. But Cyclones 360° damage is not just an offensive perk. Together with Lion's Roar Cyclone builds up a massive defense wall that knocks back enemies and prevents them to go past the 360° damage area of effect to hit the player. To make it all good Cyclone moves at the same time while doing 360° area damage. Oh, and before i forget moving with channeling Cyclone comes with free phasing through enemies as well! Knockback is very beneficial for Cyclone but its the opposite for skills like Cleave or Sweep. Leftover enemies will be pushed out of the range from Tectonic Slam for example. Its not the fault of the other skills or Lion's Roar though i make this point to create awareness how well Cyclone utilizes the mechanics of this game where other skills stack the mechanics against their odds.

- Infused Channeling Support Gem and Cyclone.
Objectivley the best support gem in the game for a Melee skill with the "Channeling" tag because Infused Channeling (lvl 20) not only provides at minimum 52.7% more damage when infused is triggered but it also provides damage reduction at the same time. The support gem came from a time when channeled skills were rooted to the spot during the channeling providing some benefits to make up for the downside of standing still in this game. Since Cyclone got a "Channeling" tag it breaks with the logic of giving skills an advantage that have to stand still while channeling and therefore have a disadvantage. Instead Cyclone moves while dealing 360° area damage and gets Infusion stacks at the same time. Its i win - win situation as much as it can be. How will the new Slam skills offset this?

Those are the 4 core reasons that make Cyclone astonishingly good and overpresent in the melee category of picked melee skills. At the same time those are the reasons that make other melee skills look very bad as a whole. Dont get me wrong, its easy to find a niche where specific non Cyclone melee skills can shine. But feel free to diagree here: When looking at the whole package then Cyclone beats any other melee skill by utilizing the underlying mechanics of the game and player usage shows for it in the melee sub category.


But what can be done better this time with "Melee Slam" skills to create a fair contender to Cyclone and not create another 3.7 "melee desaster"?


I want to leave this as an open question for discussion.

I case a few might wonder because i started a similar reddit topic and although there is a reasonable discussion going on: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/gx8cog/2hand_melee_slam_skills_vs_cyclone_impale_will_it/

I feel like a lot of feedback is buried under the loads of memes on reddit. Therefore im posting in the official forum to provide feedback for the game.

Well... Nothing much to discuss, they can't compete with cyclone in effectiveness, no melee skill can (and most ranged attacks and spells also can't).

Cyclone is pretty much the best all-round skill in the game, it does everything you would want a skill to do at the same time. There is not a single downside in it.

Thus it's not just a "numbers problem", cyclone just brings too much utility to the table, so it's hard for any other skill to compete with it unless they completed gutted cyclone damage to create a trade-off or removed some of the utility (giving a less effect to on hit effects for example).

"

There is not a single downside in it

How about virtually unscalable AoE and low damage effectiveness?
and minimal movement speed required to be "playable".

imagine a game where the devs could remember what fun is.

here are the simple fixes for melee.

1) ancestral call gem removed from game and simply applied to all strike skills as a function of leveling. this would help them feel more fluid and could give options to clear better.

2) secondary effects of skills do not require the first skill to hit.
This would help make other skills much more viable as trying to click a pixel to actually do damage is sluggish and pointless.

3) name locking removed from game, it gets you killed most times and when it doesnt the above two changes would make it obsolete.

4) skills have 25% more aoe while using a 2h weapon. Why are these weapon ranges soo short?

5) all strike skills should allow you to move while hitting. no one swings a sword and stands flat footed..


lastly , major weapon nodes should come with flat life/%life/%es/es to give added surviveability to melee oriented characters.

I have no hope for this game returning to delivering quality over buggy quantity though.

"

a_z0_9 wrote:

"

There is not a single downside in it

How about virtually unscalable AoE and low damage effectiveness?
and minimal movement speed required to be "playable".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOz7khDby2g AOE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oy3nD4itBc Damage effectivness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrqCW_AN8QE Damage/AOE/speed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBeb0SCSALg Speed

https://youtu.be/kr9IGlh0VWQ?t=1065 Speed/AOE

I don't know where the virtually unscalable aoe, or the low damage effectiveness or the movement speed problem is...

Slams just like Strikes seem to be fixing the problem noone notices nor cares about

Slams - so far - prioritize the hit. they are meant to make big hits even bigger. That alone is pretty.. pointless? Stuns? WHO CARES? you need incredible investment to stun bosses and noone cares about non-bosses..

As noted above, problem is the Attack/Action speed. 2h are slow, very slow. problem is - you cannot make them 1.9aps because that simply looks dumb, yet until they are in fact 1.9+ - there is no point using them (if you aim at min-max). As long as 'first swing' depends on weapon's attack speed there is no hope of making non-cyclone 2h setups 'good'.

Dealing 1mil hits is fun, dealing (combined) 5mil per click (hit+shockwave+aftershock+shockwave) Earthquake is fun. but.. vs normal mobs it is easily 4.5mil too much and vs bosses you are at SERIOUS risk because that combo takes A LOT of time.

GGG has to fix this issue - decouple action speed from base weapon speed, make initial hit almost-instant, dont scale it with attack speed, just like dash-like skills.

Unless that is done - 2h, Slams and all that junk are noob traps. The damage might be there next patch (however judging by unique 'reworks'.. nothing is going to change) but why would people pick slow, risky Slams if you can get 2 1.9+ crit 400pdps foils and make it all look like a sad joke?

Melee cannot do 100% damage uptime on bosses because it is far too risky. Who has easier time dodging and can take risks? slow 2h or zip-zip DW?


Cyclone is just a side-note on the 2h fiasco situation. The root cause is tying action/movement speed with base weapon speed in a game where movement is your best and necessary defence. Slams, no Slams - that doesnt matter until that issue is solved.

Templars already have too many players playing.

Yet next league will be slams and 2h maces slams (stuns).

GGG must have a screw loose every league.

The popular class gets more attention while the least popular class like ranger gets a nerf every league.

Nice job GGG...

Warcries and 2H buffs and passive tree improvements for 2H melee. Safe to say this will be another Cyclone league, and the gap between it and any other build just got a lot bigger.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Slams just like Strikes seem to be fixing the problem noone notices nor cares about

Slams - so far - prioritize the hit. they are meant to make big hits even bigger. That alone is pretty.. pointless? Stuns? WHO CARES? you need incredible investment to stun bosses and noone cares about non-bosses..

As noted above, problem is the Attack/Action speed. 2h are slow, very slow. problem is - you cannot make them 1.9aps because that simply looks dumb, yet until they are in fact 1.9+ - there is no point using them (if you aim at min-max). As long as 'first swing' depends on weapon's attack speed there is no hope of making non-cyclone 2h setups 'good'.

Dealing 1mil hits is fun, dealing (combined) 5mil per click (hit+shockwave+aftershock+shockwave) Earthquake is fun. but.. vs normal mobs it is easily 4.5mil too much and vs bosses you are at SERIOUS risk because that combo takes A LOT of time.

GGG has to fix this issue - decouple action speed from base weapon speed, make initial hit almost-instant, dont scale it with attack speed, just like dash-like skills.

Unless that is done - 2h, Slams and all that junk are noob traps. The damage might be there next patch (however judging by unique 'reworks'.. nothing is going to change) but why would people pick slow, risky Slams if you can get 2 1.9+ crit 400pdps foils and make it all look like a sad joke?

Melee cannot do 100% damage uptime on bosses because it is far too risky. Who has easier time dodging and can take risks? slow 2h or zip-zip DW?


Cyclone is just a side-note on the 2h fiasco situation. The root cause is tying action/movement speed with base weapon speed in a game where movement is your best and necessary defence. Slams, no Slams - that doesnt matter until that issue is solved.

Actually i think there are solutions that could be done without too much effort. Obivous things we may have seen in the trailers already are:

- Increased AoE for Slam Attacks

Things id personally would like to see: Increased Attack Speed Modifiers on all Strike and Slam gems because nerfing those in 3.7 was simply uneffective when pushing a for a new Melee sub category.

Other options: Leech, Life Gain on hit and other on Hit effects that are supreme with Cyclone due to its attack speed modifier could be changed so that they have a kind of T value where T is the incoming damage of a single hit. The larger the hit the more you get out of on hit effects. There could be a second H value that represents attack speed and lowers the overall result if the H value is too high.
Optimal output would be that strong slow single hit moves getting stronger benefits from on hit effects compared to fast low damaging hits.

Another very important thing in my eyes regarding the 2Hand Melee rework:

- Implicit bonuses granted that are equally good like Dualwielding. Examples could be 20% damage reduction/Less damage taken. 25 More AoE Damage and Area of Effect. But i cant tell you how we do exclude Cyclone from this because it would equally profit from those implicits and still be auto melee pick.

"

nadakuu wrote:

imagine a game where the devs could remember what fun is.

here are the simple fixes for melee.

1) ancestral call gem removed from game and simply applied to all strike skills as a function of leveling. this would help them feel more fluid and could give options to clear better.

2) secondary effects of skills do not require the first skill to hit.
This would help make other skills much more viable as trying to click a pixel to actually do damage is sluggish and pointless.

3) name locking removed from game, it gets you killed most times and when it doesnt the above two changes would make it obsolete.

4) skills have 25% more aoe while using a 2h weapon. Why are these weapon ranges soo short?

5) all strike skills should allow you to move while hitting. no one swings a sword and stands flat footed..


lastly , major weapon nodes should come with flat life/%life/%es/es to give added surviveability to melee oriented characters.

I have no hope for this game returning to delivering quality over buggy quantity though.

Great points.
I would be more than happy just with built it Ancestral Call or Melee Splash. Even better, both.