GGG is now doing all legit players a dis-service by keeping PoE 100% Free-to-play.,

"

Arrowneous wrote:

Since the debate/argument thread on the whole "Is PoE really free to play or not?" got so many posts, I concluded that the main talk was about the fact that GGG only gives a new player 4 stash tabs to use. Thus one of the first things any serious player of PoE does is wait for the every 3 weeks (normally) Super Stash Tab weekend sale and buys a 6 pack or 2 of stash tabs. I don't care whether this mandatory (yes mandatory... please no trolling or bs'ing on "I can play entire game with only 4 stash tabs") requirement of increasing out stash space means that PoE really isn't F2P or not. Everyone has their own personal take about it and that's fine.

Here's why I'm making a new post. Since PoE is F2P and thus all the botters can have as many accounts as they want, and that's a big problem here, GGG needs to stop being entirely free-to-play and charge either $11.00 USD (cost ofthe map tab 6 pack on sale) or $16.50 USD (cost of the premium map tab 6 pack on sale) to play PoE. Then instead of only starting with only 4 stash tabs you get 10 stash tabs to use. This would accomplish:

1. a.) $11.00 = new players start with 10 stash tabs.
    b.) $16.50 = new players start with 4 stash tabs + 6 premium stash tabs.
2. Eliminate many of the botters if a new account wasn't free.
3. Stop the insane debate over whether PoE is "truly" free-to-play or not.
4. Stop inflating the player numbers with kiddies and bots. Playerbase would be the real players.

Of course I know that GGG isn't going to change their business model so this post is just a "what if" thinking out loud. But it would/could help.

I'm surprised they haven't done this at least 4 years ago or at least somewhere after 1.0 was released. Though I enjoy the free play, I would not be against paying. However, the debate would shift from F2P to constantly online vs offline available gameplay; forcing GGG into a similar position Microsoft was in back when they first announced the X Box one being mandatory online only.

While here in PoE I get the F2P argument though. People don't seem to be used to prioritizing or using mule chars. I learned to use mule chars back in D2 days and it stuck with me ever since. The main issue I have relating to tabs etc; is not the extra tabs themselves but the currency ones instead. It does seem to be a slap in the face having to deal with picking up all these orbs, cards, shards, etc. It doesn't help matters any with GGG introducing new ones either.

I think GGG should allow a default maximum of 100 of each orb, but charge for more or unlimited; as however they currently sell currency tabs. If they were to do that, it'd be a simple change that wouldn't affect business. Might even promote it.

Not just that but a free premium tab (3 normal, 1 premium) would potentially show the new player the value of it. This might make a new player into a paying customer quicker. I remember asking why would I spend $20 on tabs. What's the point of premium tabs where you just change the color and name? The real value is being able to effortlessly list items for trade.

This ship has sailed like 7 years ago. If you want to kick the chat bots in the nuts, make chat only possible if the player has at least 1 challenge completed. It's not a perfect solution but at least it's something.

Honestly I couldn't care less about PoE becoming P2P, nothing would change for the better in my opinion.

However, I would pay 60 dollars for an offline PoE, even if it's just a one-time dump with no further support. No more lag, no more obnoxious trading and pointless "player interactions", no more 60 dollar armor sets that you cant customize or even re-color, and modding community would do so many great things with this game...

Unfortunately, it will never happen.

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Mythreindeer wrote:

I find it hard to believe that anyone from before the internet generation would pay these prices for extras but I guess I'm kidding myself there.

I exist, so you sort of have to believe it. And most Diamonds/Eternals I know are solidly Gen X; some are even boomers! We were so utterly dismayed at what Actiblizz were doing to our beloved Diablo (we who played the shareware demo to death when it came out in late 1995; who we skipped class or uni or work or in my case all three to play D1 in early 1996) that when we saw PoE, we were all over it like mist over Wraeclast. Of course we wanted to support this ambitious, passionate underdog project. And now that we were adults with liquid assets and disposable incomes (give or take), we had the means to do so. You have to understand, in 2012, this really was the great David and Goliath story. Diablo 3 was on everyone's lips. Chris himself played it for days when it came out -- he looked like a hobo when he finally got on a stream afterwards.

PoE needed all the support it could get, and we tried to give it.

Nowadays? Eh, obviously a whole other story. Chris played his checkmate move by cashing out but now that he's not the landlord, GGG has to be a lot more diligent with paying their rent on-time. Hence the ramping up of mtx releases, I strongly suspect.

At any rate, I'd wager not too many people 'from the internet generation' paid 'these prices for extras' in the formative years of PoE. And anyone who got a taste for it then and still loves the game now is probably still at it, duly buying support packs each league. Supporting is addictive. Chris knows this all too well. Especially when it can still be sold as an ethical 'help keep what you love alive, get some pointless bling in return' gesture rather than the 'give us $100 and we'll give you 100 attempts at getting a super super rare item/character' model so common to Asian-owned free-to-play games.

I personally rebuke anyone who calls it a 'donation' however, even though it is structured that way (give money out of goodwill, get useless shit in return). A donation is tax deductible, for a start, and they typically go to not-for-profit organisations. Just because GGG played the ethical card and went 'no pay to win' and 'pay what you want, we don't mind if it's nothing at all' and all that shit, one should NEVER forget that GGG is for-profit and the end-goal is, was, always will be, making money. 'Donation' is a euphemism when it comes to buying support packs from GGG. Nothing more.

Please stop kidding yourself. Plenty of Gen X and Boomers are still buying support packs for PoE, and using their GGGold to buy what I absolutely agree are overpriced mtxes. They've been raised to pay for what they love, to know that you appreciate what you work and pay for far more than what you're merely given (even if the lucky Gen Xers get the house eventually). If anything, I'd say it's 'the internet generation' who expect it for free, as pretty much anything on the internet can be if you know the right waters to sail. But given the shitty state of the world they've inherited, I can't say I really blame 'the internet generation' (millennials?) for that attitude.

*shrug* It's complicated!

Bottom line is if everyone thought as you did about supporting PoE and its overpriced extras, it would die in a matter of days. So...maybe be thankful they don't. ^_^

__

And yes, the bottom line is free-to-play is not why PoE is plagued with bots. The fact that there are players willing to break the rules and buy from the people running those bots is why there are bots. The really difficult part, and folks like I_NO have acknowledged this, is bots are better suited for GGG's idea of a trading system than real people. Trading in-game with bots is quick, efficient, rewarding. Trading with people is as likely to be frustrating, difficult and rage-inducing as it is pleasant, cordial and enjoyable. Personally I'll take the 'click to buy now' model over the 'howdy neighbour, let's dicker a while and try to fuck each other over, wait, you don't speak English, aw shit' model any day.

In that light, bots are good for PoE. LOL. Amazing, but there it is.

"

Xavderion wrote:

This ship has sailed like 7 years ago.

This!

They can't just make the game pay-to-play all of a sudden. Their whole company, game and operation is built around F2P. Suddenly making PoE pay-to-play would alter so much more than you think. It's just not a very... "Stable" move.

The only thing I could possible see them doing, is to add a form of "battle pass" for league players, where you pay a fee each league to opt in for a greater/better progression system when it comes to cosmetics and rewards.

But anyhow, no matter if you OP (or I) think it's possible or not to play this game without paying anything, A LOT of people around the world are doing just that. To suddenly say "hey, you over there - you're not allowed to play this you've invested several years in without paying from now on" sounds like a dick move. While I think paying for the enjoyment you've got for all of these years should go without saying, not everyone agrees with me.

Personally (and egoistically subjective), I wouldn't mind PoE being pay-to-play or subscription based. But as Xavderion says; that ship has sailed. If there's two things GGG are proud about, it's their itemization and their monetization model, I'm pretty sure.

In its current state PoE is “pay to play” anyway. It definitely wasn’t in 2012, it was barely ftp in 2017. Now everything is clear, game evolved into free demo (campaign) and purchasable endgame, at least from beginners point of view. Yes, it is still “possible” to play without purchasable specialized tabs, yes, it is “possible” to play without premium stash tabs, yes, it is still “possible” to even trade without them. Just like it’s possible to “driving” a car in such a way that one person sits behind the wheel and the other pushes the car from behind.

So there is no need to transform it to “official” pay to play, because it would ruin the business. Veterans already have all the "tabs" necessary for them and the novices on whom Tencent earns the most, will spend much more before they know which paid tabs are completely unnecessary.

I don't see a perfect solution since they want PoE 2 to be PoE 1.5 and keep everything mixed. I worry that farm/trade bots are going to be completely out of control in PoE 2 and ruin the experience. No way to tell 1.5 years out though.

Poe is already pay to play game.

Free to play is just a demo.
All whats needed is to rename "supporter pack" into "bought game version"

Play poe for free as a demo.

But if you want stash tabs, map tabs, and other things you buy it as a game.

But right now its "you buy it as a supporter pack".. ItS OpTiOnAl.

So its the same thing already. The game is unplayable without buying core things. Its like no time limit demo.

"

webas wrote:

Poe is already pay to play game.

Free to play is just a demo.
All whats needed is to rename "supporter pack" into "bought game version"

Play poe for free as a demo.

But if you want stash tabs, map tabs, and other things you buy it as a game.

But right now its "you buy it as a supporter pack".. ItS OpTiOnAl.

So its the same thing already. The game is unplayable without buying core things. Its like no time limit demo.

You clearly dont know what "Pay to play" means when it comes to games.

(I will give you a hint. See WoW)