Why is Trade in PoE the way it is? A History

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I saw this post recently and in the comments were many people who seemed to be relatively new, wondering why in the world no AH style system existed in PoE, or at least why so many of the frustrations that are present haven't been fixed in any number of simple ways. I can speak on this, as I have been playing since Closed Beta and I'm a bit of an econ hound myself (though far from the level of experience of many other veterans).

As a disclaimer, I personally would greatly benefit from the existence of an AH in PoE. I know how to use auction houses, and I know how emergent market forces work in game economies. If an AH were introduced in PoE, I personally would feel that my experience had improved. Keep this in mind as you read on.

First of all, the feelings of confusion/puzzlement over the lack of an easy-to-use exchange system are completely normal, given that most games that allow exchange of items between players don't seemingly arbitrarily hold back the smoothness of their own trade system. It is a perfectly legitimate question to wonder why in the world GGG haven't taken any number of simple steps to assuage so many of the frustrations that exist with the current trade system. I can explain.

GGG and Chris Wilson himself have made official statements (and a manifesto) about this issue over the years. Trade as it exists now wasn't always so, and when GGG made PoE, they carried over the player-to-player barter style economy from Diablo 2, PoE's spiritual predecessor. At the time this was a perfect fit, and made sense. Veterans of Diablo 2 had yet another dose of familiarity in this system, and the ARPG scene in general wasn't thick enough with entries for such a system to seem out of place to new players, since there wasn't much else to compare it to. MMO's had moved onto AH style exchanges and had been there a while, but APRG's were rooted in a different place, so the difference wasn't so stark across genres.

GGG and Chris Wilson wanted a game where players interacted with the game, and with their loot. The orb system exemplifies this, with many ways in which to interact with the items that you personally get as drops, modifying them and molding them to your build (which should also be unique, given the extensive customizability of the tree and such). Exchanges could be made between players, but in the original view of the game, should be rare enough such that the majority of what you use still comes from what you get yourself. The drop quantity and quality of items in the game was balanced around this very idea. A by-design efficient trade system would go directly against this idea and Chris has directly stated himself that GGG would have to nerf drops by as much as 75% in a world with an instant trade system.

So if this is the case, then how did we get where we are today? How did we go from players being seemingly satisfied with the old D2 style barter and small-scale trade system to people wanting an AH or bust now? Well, it all started with Premium Tabs. GGG wanted players to be able to show off their items in the forums, so they allowed Premium Tabs to display items in showcases on their website. Since this included the stats of the item, people now had a way to "showcase" their items for sale, rather than pride. Shops started popping up, with people sorting their items into categories on their forum threads. Programs like Procurement and Acquisition allowed searching of items that were publicly indexed, creating the first pseudo-auction-houses. Things progressed from here until eventually entire websites started combing the public API data and indexing every item that was in a publicly viewable Premium Tab. Then GGG realized that they had to offer a first-party option to these sites so they wouldn't have innumerable sources indexing from their API and slowing it down. This brings us to where we are today. But at every step, GGG was not "advancing" the mechanics of trade in PoE, they were capitulating to emergent player demand. They were only doing what they now had to do given what had already been done, and it all started with allowing items to be publicly indexed.

GGG never wanted people to economize and commoditize their items. Exchange was to be a rare and organic thing (player interaction) that would happen with the main focus not being on any raw currency value. This was built into the original design of PoE, having no actual currency system and all the orbs being of some actual use in-game. They didn't want a liquidity-based market from the start, and wanted the focus to be on characters and their items, with the occasional exchange if some melee found a good wand for their caster friend. Sure, players would be encountering items that they knew someone else might value, but the original idea of the game was such that a player wouldn't care enough to bother trying to realize the full value out of every item they got in loot, and the lack of an infrastructure for formal trade reinforced this. You weren't supposed to be "able" to commoditize your items, but the gameplay wasn't supposed to make you care enough to miss being able to. This design allowed GGG to create a more loot-heavy drop system, since the lack of liquid exchange would mean that players largely wouldn't be moving items around to their most efficient economic endpoints. GGG wanted to capture that magic of finding an item yourself that was an upgrade, and the lack of a liquid-exchange meant they could crank up the droprates to chase that magic.

Unfortunately, what we have now is a shit situation, and I don't envy GGG the position they are in. The game is fundamentally rooted in the above concepts. People obviously will extract value from their items if they can, and the economization of the game over time due to public indexing and the days of Procurement and Acquisition have caused players to start seeing certain orbs as currencies first, orbs second, something GGG never wanted. Increased trade efficiency means increased item flow, and because of the way markets work, that means more items landing in places where they are most efficient. This shifts the loot focus from one where you get your power from drops, to one where you get your power from the market. GGG's magic is in jeopardy here.

The lack of an exchange in modern times is GGG's grasp at retaining what magic they can. The more frustrating trade is, the less likely at any given turn that a player will utilize it. Even when players regularly trade to some degree, the amount of time it takes on an item-by-item basis means that they still won't be trading as much as they would if they could simply click a button (I know this because this is me, I'm a goblin through and through). GGG has essentially made the best of a bad situation, by making the worst of bad circumstances. They didn't specifically implement frustrations into their current trade system, but they aren't against taking advantage of the natural presence of such circumstances if it holds back hyper liquidity.

Many say that the playerbase for games like this (multiplayer RPG's in general) has moved on in the age of connectivity that we now live in and exchanges should be standard (I'm one of these people). However, despite my own views, I can certainly appreciate and sympathize with GGG's current situation, trying to hold on to the magic that was one of the cornerstones of the game in the first place.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Because GGG thinks it slows shit down so you will play longer and thus be around to donate longer. All it did for me is make me realize I am being manipulated like much of their tedious game and stop


BTW it doesnt work GGG. SSFHCs make 100 first nearly every league in case you have not noticed. So get a decent trade system

As far as GGG not really wanting trade. Thats laughable when API is public so all trade and build sites can scour every item you have instantly. If they wanted trade "organic" they'd make it organic by blocking that. You'd have to do chat, post on the main board or know ppl to get anything. You'd have to also converse to find metas rather than just copy paste from ninja. They want trade just slowed down and think frustration is the key.

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Mortyx wrote:

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Because GGG thinks it slows shit down so you will play longer and thus be around to donate longer. All it did for me is make me realize I am being manipulated like much of their tedious game and stop


BTW it doesnt work GGG. SSFHCs make 100 first nearly every league in case you have not noticed. So get a decent trade system

As far as GGG not really wanting trade. Thats laughable when API is public so all trade and build sites can scour every item you have instantly. If they wanted trade "organic" they'd make it organic by blocking that. You'd have to do chat, post on the main board or know ppl to get anything. You'd have to also converse to find metas rather than just copy paste from ninja. They want trade just slowed down and think frustration is the key.

Exactly, GGG words severely contradict their actions, words are just wind in this case. If they truly wanted what "OP" described all they had to do (and can still do) is removing the Public API, they can still let players share their items in some showcase but only inside the game. No Public API, no sharing in the forums, focus on the ingame experience.

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Nobody said anything about disabling trade only that you get rid of frustration layer that proven ineffective and in some cases off putting when ppl quit. Think anyone would quit with a AH? No one ever said "Oh it's too easy and conveinant..I'm out."

What lots of us say we won't trade with byzantine system and go SSF or go period.

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Exile009 wrote:

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Mortyx wrote:

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Aim_Deep wrote:

Because GGG thinks it slows shit down so you will play longer and thus be around to donate longer. All it did for me is make me realize I am being manipulated like much of their tedious game and stop


BTW it doesnt work GGG. SSFHCs make 100 first nearly every league in case you have not noticed. So get a decent trade system

As far as GGG not really wanting trade. Thats laughable when API is public so all trade and build sites can scour every item you have instantly. If they wanted trade "organic" they'd make it organic by blocking that. You'd have to do chat, post on the main board or know ppl to get anything. You'd have to also converse to find metas rather than just copy paste from ninja. They want trade just slowed down and think frustration is the key.

Exactly, GGG words severely contradict their actions, words are just wind in this case. If they truly wanted what "OP" described all they had to do (and can still do) is removing the Public API, they can still let players share their items in some showcase but only inside the game. No Public API, no sharing in the forums, focus on the ingame experience.

Both of you do realize that if GGG did that they'd face the biggest player protest this game has ever seen, right? You seem to be confused about the difference between something technically possible versus it being politically feasible. A lot of things in the world are technically possible, that doesn't mean they would ever fly if the agents that could do them (companies, govts., schools, etc.) actually tried it. GGG knows they'd never be able to get away with something like that at this point. If you want to call them cowardly for that, I'd challenge you to get yourself into a similar situation (head of a consumer company dependent on voluntary transactions to make ends meet) and then do something that alienates most of your customer base. Even if you did have the stones to do it, market selection would put an end to the practice pretty quick - anyone who did that would quickly find their company bankrupt. The point of this post is to show how GGG is in a rather tough bind wrt trade (especially given the wide variety of player views on it as well). You're trying to minimize that by pretending it's an easy decision. It isn't.