A business point of view.

Hi. I think it goes without saying that I'm probably one of the guilty parties when it comes to PoE vs Diablo 3, but I would challenge anyone who has actually read my initial (and to this date I think best) post on the matter to declare that I think finances were ever really an issue.

I said what I said before GGG even invited contributions from players, before I knew that GGG were fortunate enough to have 'rich friends' (sorry, Chris, your words! And I appreciate the candour of them!) or that Chris himself threw his life savings into the ring (although I definitely have hinted elsewhere that I suspected this to be the case -- you don't get this passionate about something without that level of commitment, I think).

If anything, I think the tightness of GGG, the 'core' feel to it, gives it a massive bloody advantage over a mega-company that has multiple departments, bureaucracy and policy at most if not all levels, and of course an *expectation* to make millions of dollars. Without GGG's intimate nature, we wouldn't have devs in-game and the only people we'd see from GGG on this board would be PR and CMs -- no offence to Samantha, but I bet she's glad that she's not the only one here dealing with us nutjobs!

In the end (and here I risk repeating myself), I compare PoE to Diablo 3 because these two games are, right now, the biggest options for a Diablo veteran. They offer very different packages, different philosophies. I hate it when people resort to comparisons as their initial go-to for reviews, but let's be honest: they are the quickest, most efficient form of assessment.

And if I'd felt that PoE wouldn't measure up, I never would have made that post. I'd have sighed and crawled back to D3, because we do take what we can. But since I thought it did, I wanted to champion it.

And although some people think me mad, I am so grateful that GGG has given us this opportunity to be involved. Let me believe this is the start of something huge, and that I'm part of its incubation. It's totally arrogant on my behalf...but let me believe it anyway. :)

And good luck feeling that way as a D3 beta tester. Seriously.

I always enjoy reading your long posts Charan, mainly due to the fact that your obviously not an idiot and seem well educated. Your posts are always a good read :).

Also donating 1000 dollars to this game makes me value your opinion even further. Props for that. :)

Also, this is a lovely game and ive already chosen PoE over D3 (if that matters at all?).

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Lioncash wrote:

Diablo 3 is supported by Blizzard Entertainment and Activision, both of which are now majority owned by Vivendi SA. This means that both of these companies have access to the best game designers and developers on the planet...

just a little 'side bash' thought on this (underlined passage): If they have so much money to have all the best developers, why didnt they still have the programmers of the original D1 and D2? Shouldnt these be the very best option to do the sequel? ^^

This is already a fantastic game, and it's only Beta with a fraction of its final release content available to us. I'm excited to support that.

Given the almost unanimously positive reception it continues to receive, I doubt it will fail to live up to its owners' initial expectations as to subscriber numbers.

Notwithstanding that, I imagine some of the challenges that the business will face to ensure its longevity will include:
- The rate of conversion from freeloading players to paying players for aesthetic content and the longevity of these players continuing to pay, month in, month out, for this same aesthetic content (would it really be so bad if they charged an upfront one-off fee for the game? Personally, I don't think so...)
- The risk of PR/user backlash from potential technical issues in the initial release (although there have been so many learning opportunities...)
- Duping and the policing thereof
- Ensuring scalability of the team and business model. Will the key individuals remain interested - and not just economically incentivised - in their labour of love if (when?) they sell out to a major gaming company/financial investor?
- The end game after 1000s of hours...

In any case, these are all high class challenges, none of which I would have guessed are insoluble.

Petrov.

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just a little 'side bash' thought on this (underlined passage): If they have so much money to have all the best developers, why didnt they still have the programmers of the original D1 and D2? Shouldnt these be the very best option to do the sequel? ^^

because in the industry, unless you are a person like john carmack, peter molynuex or some other big name, then you are a little cog in a big machine.

the reason the big companies lose a lot of their talent is because they treat most of them like crap and stifle their ideas and creative freedoms.

its the middle management/marketing divisions that are responsible for the rape of so many intellectual properties.

there are many examples, but one that pops into my mind is a comparison between deus ex 1 & 2.

part 1 they had creative freedom

part 2 they toned it down to try and give it "broad appeal to a larger customer base"

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Mr_Cee wrote:

If they have so much money to have all the best developers, why didnt they still have the programmers of the original D1 and D2? Shouldnt these be the very best option to do the sequel? ^^

Money doesn’ t give you everything apparently.. not even for blizzard

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Lioncash wrote:

[...] This means that both of these companies have access to the best game designers and developers on the planet, billions of dollars worth of resources and all the time in the world to produce a game, hence Diablo 3 taking over 8 years to produce so far.
[...]

I had to smile a bit over that "the best game designers and developers" part. In my experience and from what I've gathered in following the gaming industry for 15 years, even the "bestest" designers fall from grace quite regularly *cough* John Romero *coughcough*.

There are, of course, very capable individuals. But the sheer complexity of games means that even when only those demigods of game design work together, everything may very much still hit the fan because of something they didn't foresee. It's actually more of a general rule when you take a look at how many games really are commercially successful.
And the more money is involved, the more those creative people get strangled by rules the "people with money" insisted on having. That might even be why so many people fled Diablo 3's production over the years.
It may be a bit naive, but I sometimes wonder if all the people with backbone and artistic integrity left and only the people who were willing to bend their knees in order to keep their jobs stayed.

At the same time, relatively unknown people (or even amateurs) have managed to create some of the most well-known games in existence (Counter-Strike or DotA as examples).

Nutshell: While money can buy expertise, it is in no way a sure-fire way to produce a really good game. Just as really small companies can hit big.


And personally, I think it's to PoE'S credit that the game is seen as "competitive" to D3. Consumers mostly see products as strictly "what do I get out of them" and not in a "what can I reasonably expect considering its production" kind of way.
If a game produced by handful of people with very limited budget is seen as competitive to a game which is produced by one of the largest and most critically acclaimed developers in the world: Kudos to GGG!

And it's the effects of that very small scale that really drew me in. Example: It's obvious that the art was done by very few people: It has a certain internal consistency that to me is much more appealing than the art style produced by 30 designers who all try to adhere to an agreed-upon standard.

I'm sorry, but I think PoE vs D3 vs T2 vs Grim Dawn are all valid comparisons. They are games that are operating in a very similar space, going for a very similar target market.

To ignore the other games and to not make comparisons is a mistake - burring your head in the sand does not help you make a better product.

Yeah, in the end Diablo 3 will probably be more successful game in terms of how many units are sold - Blizzard already has a fan base of millions, many of which will buy Diablo 3 no questions asked - even if they are part of the internet rage that are against some of their recent design choices.

But that doesn't mean that PoE can't or won't be successful. There will be players that pick up all of the games, there will be ones that will only play one and stick with it.

From the looks of it - I feel that PoE will do well, but PoE doing well will still represent a smaller piece of the pie than Diablo 3 will get, but that isn't a problem - it's just reality.

"

This means that both of these companies have access to the best game designers and developers on the planet...

LOL.

You mean, have access to the best 'appeal to the masses and make as much money possible with hype and dumbing down' developers. Im sure the game designers got their hands tied with all the various share holders and managers they had to please.

Over the past 2 decades, I've worked as a developer for a number of large companies (Kodak being one) and small companies (from 2 to 50 people), so I know that while having a lot of resources can make product development easier, a lot of resources doesn't necessarily result in a good product.

A small team passionate about what they're doing has a better chance of making a great product than a well funded team saddled with business people who are more worried about getting a return on their investment than making a great game.

Path of Exile is constantly compared to Diablo because it is closer to what some folks were hoping for in D3 than the direction D3 is actually going. And in this day and age where a company doesn't have to negotiate for shelf space in a store, or pay for print advertising, and can handle international payments almost as easily as domestic ones, I think that Grinding Gear Games isn't going to have any trouble finding players.

The main obstacle I see for GGG is finding that balance between listening to the fans and staying true to the vision. Having an active and engaged fan base is both a blessing and a curse.