Dear Chris, thanks for that almost killing joke! :)

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

by my estimation its probably the 3rd most complained about thing in the history of the game that still stands today after trade and melee. desync is gone, that was big, map drops are probably 4th.

^ That's 100% what I estimate too!

For me sidtherat made a perfect summary of the state of the game right now:
tldr: "all vestiges of 'hardcore' game are gone except for unhealthy time required to pay the time tax (built in as a feature!)"


The survival bonus from sacred 2 that raics mentioned or Deathless xp streaks in general like Redfeather_1975 mentioned would really be a lot better than the xp loss we have right now. The xp loss is pointless until you reach at least level 90 then it's somewhat ok up to level 95 and after that it is nothing but a pain in the ass because it forces you to play safe and playing safe isn't hard every moron can do it but it is boring as hell. For me resistance to boredom has nothing to do with being good at a game and that is the whole Problem. You don't have to be good at poe to reach lvl. 100 at all you only need a very high resistance to boredom.

"

vio wrote:

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Well, a survival bonus would be light years better than having the current 10% death EXP penalty slap on the wrist where it doesn't matter (aka the first 95 levels),

they already addressed this "survival bonus" for not dying. and decided against it cause it would demotivate players to continue playing after a death cause they would need to build something up again.

a single setback is likely easier to stomach, at least i feel this way.

And that's different from having to build up your lost XP in what way?

One thing we should keep in mind is that developers are notorious for making up excuses when they don't want to do something because raisins. People tend to think that even a flimsy excuse is better than saying 'I don't want to do it because it doesn't fit my original plan I still like'.

If anyone cares, I'm blaming consumer society. Saying 'no' outright is nothing short of demonized, you will instead pull out company policy #69 like Geralt of Rivia when you ask him to kill a dragon :)

People should really look up the word penalty.

I don't see any arguments in here that adress the death penalty's function in the game design as a whole.

All i see is "the penalty should be lower because i don't like it", which to me amounts to "water is wet".

If your feeling punished by a penalty, guess what, from a design perspective thats called a success.

They lowered it from 15% to 10% in the past already, now imagine corpse running being a thing and you constantly lose another 10% for each failed attempt, the amount of "fuck this shit" feedback would be gigantic.

Or even just losing all your portals to get your corpse back, the fallout would be a disaster in comparison to the current system.

Maybe they should add a voice line for everytime you get 10% xp without dying, because apparently some people don't experience "not dying" as "winning" and fail to see the win-state associated with the lose-state.

Peace,

-Boem-

"

Boem wrote:

People should really look up the word penalty.

I don't see any arguments in here that adress the death penalty's function in the game design as a whole.

All i see is "the penalty should be lower because i don't like it", which to me amounts to "water is wet".

If your feeling punished by a penalty, guess what, from a design perspective thats called a success.

They lowered it from 15% to 10% in the past already, now imagine corpse running being a thing and you constantly lose another 10% for each failed attempt, the amount of "fuck this shit" feedback would be gigantic.

Or even just losing all your portals to get your corpse back, the fallout would be a disaster in comparison to the current system.

Maybe they should add a voice line for everytime you get 10% xp without dying, because apparently some people don't experience "not dying" as "winning" and fail to see the win-state associated with the lose-state.

Peace,

-Boem-

This.

Maybe ppl forgot the meaning of penalty, because there is almost no feedback you can learn from due to non-existant deathlog, poorly telegraphed one-shots, and act bosses that can be zerged.
Another reason maybe is that we have meta builds suggesting to facetank or/and one-shot everything of screen.
Who actually plays this game the way like the PoE 2 trailer show-cased?

I have much hopes that the whole thing gets a new direction in PoE 2 and that the death penalty become something a can learn from how to deal with risk in this game.

having a 'xp deatheless' streak is completely different from having a penalty, and you know it. they are completely different things, one says 'don't do it it's bad and we'll fuck you up for it' and the other says 'hey so u know u can be more efficient if you dont completely glasscannon it, you know, just sayin'


or maybe this is new generation's idea of 'penalties', chronic aversion to failures so much even if you fuck up you're somehow not supposed to be punished.

what the hell is even the point of playing SC if you dont have a single fail state ?

just as a reminder- the reason why pre-90 its a slap on the wrist and at 99 it's a disaster, is because the death penalty is aimed at those trying to push 100.

the main idea of it, is if you wanna push 100, you shouldnt die often. its a perfectly reasonable, and may I add, elegant solution in punishing specifically the people they want to punish for dying

"

Synopse wrote:

Spoiler

"

Boem wrote:

People should really look up the word penalty.

I don't see any arguments in here that adress the death penalty's function in the game design as a whole.

All i see is "the penalty should be lower because i don't like it", which to me amounts to "water is wet".

If your feeling punished by a penalty, guess what, from a design perspective thats called a success.

They lowered it from 15% to 10% in the past already, now imagine corpse running being a thing and you constantly lose another 10% for each failed attempt, the amount of "fuck this shit" feedback would be gigantic.

Or even just losing all your portals to get your corpse back, the fallout would be a disaster in comparison to the current system.

Maybe they should add a voice line for everytime you get 10% xp without dying, because apparently some people don't experience "not dying" as "winning" and fail to see the win-state associated with the lose-state.

Peace,

-Boem-

This.

Maybe ppl forgot the meaning of penalty, because there is almost no feedback you can learn from due to non-existant deathlog, poorly telegraphed one-shots, and act bosses that can be zerged.
Another reason maybe is that we have meta builds suggesting to facetank or/and one-shot everything of screen.
Who actually plays this game the way like the PoE 2 trailer show-cased?

I have much hopes that the whole thing gets a new direction in PoE 2 and that the death penalty become something a can learn from how to deal with risk in this game.

Please, let's not be coy about it, the fact that PoE lacks minimal relevant information regarding the cause of death, poorly telegraphed one shots, various technical problems which will always lead to an "unfair death" (which couldn't be avoided due to said circumstances), and the ENCOURAGED ZERGING of difficult content - which they at least limited to 6 tries in the mapping context - is simply detrimental to the old mentality of "slap the 10 % death EXP penalty, and be done with it" as a solution.

It never remained a proper answer since the rampant power creep, forced meta changes and the conundrum of still killing the players "efficiently"...

Some "casual n00bs" play PoE exactly like the PoE 2 trailer showcased it, by going hard capped damage via RT, dual wielding 1 H weapons, real melee and deal with the end game, yet in an amazing way, they sometimes win... ^^

The real problem still remains having no proper EXP incentive regarding the skewed danger/reward ratio for end game - you lose 10 % EXP at 99, that still amounts to several hours of playtime, even with a damn cookie cutter zoom zoom meta build - and I do feel players should be better served by at least having said penalty moved entirely on the number of tries for the content (like linking it directly with the number of attempts, and a death should annul all the EXP gained for the current run of a map for example)...

Regardless, TencentGGG should address the other aspects leading to said skewed perception regarding the time wasted due to the impact of the death EXP penalty for the last few levels before 100... Death EXP penalty should have always be kept relevant all along the journey from level 1 to 100, and there should be better solutions already implemented.

Casualisation shouldn't be a bad aspect, as long as those casuals get either the chance to improve their gameplay - via min-maxing, using a proper build and/or skillplay etc. - or simply fallback to the monotonous longer grind for the same effect, by simply running "lesser" content...

Still, someone said it perfect when it mentioned PoE not being Softcore friendly due to all the "hardcore" reminiscent mechanics, and not being Hardcore friendly due to having the game also cater to a Softcore aspect, as this proves lackluster on all fronts unfortunately...

Hopefully PoE 2 will improve most of the faults, while also improving even more the best aspects... We can only hope TencentGGG will surprise us pleasantly...

"

grepman wrote:

Spoiler

just as a reminder- the reason why pre-90 its a slap on the wrist and at 99 it's a disaster, is because the death penalty is aimed at those trying to push 100.

the main idea of it, is if you wanna push 100, you shouldnt die often. its a perfectly reasonable, and may I add, elegant solution in punishing specifically the people they want to punish for dying

Why not make it relevant all the way from 1 to 100?

Why not address the damn level 100 status reached on EACH LEVEL UP?

I beg to differ. I will reach level 100, even on a character that died >1K times (though surely less than 100 from 95 to 100), which was played for a "few" thousand hours - sure, with a nice damage cap, dual wielding 1 H weapons used with a REAL MELEE skill that requires to actually "smell the enemies armpits" to kill them, and doing so on every content at hand. ^^

That is not an "elegant solution in punishing specifically the people they want to punish for dying", is simply rewarding twofold the "meta or bust" mentality and the "grind ad infinitum on content your very comfortable with", instead of pushing your character to it's maximal potential...

I still think there are better solutions regarding a proper danger/reward ratio EXP wise when talking end game in PoE... Hopefully they will get implemented before PoE 2 hits...

again, if you die at 99, the penalty is harsh because it's supposed to be. otherwise the distinction of reaching 100 is nill.

it's funny how people cant see past their own nose here into the future

there already is little to no incentive in building a defense-oriented character in softcore. you remove the death penalty and what is EVER a reason for going tanky except for novelty (ie, different outfit for barbie when youre bored) ?

hell, the reason why I liked pre-nerf betrayal is that I could facetank tough content as a build that wasnt great offensively but held its own defensively.

you remove the threat of death (and xp penalty is basically the main threat along with losing all portals) and whats the reason to not go glass cannon and just instaphase toughest bosses in the game ?

"

grepman wrote:

Spoiler

again, if you die at 99, the penalty is harsh because it's supposed to be. otherwise the distinction of reaching 100 is nill.

it's funny how people cant see past their own nose here into the future

there already is little to no incentive in building a defense-oriented character in softcore. you remove the death penalty and what is EVER a reason for going tanky except for novelty (ie, different outfit for barbie when youre bored) ?

hell, the reason why I liked pre-nerf betrayal is that I could facetank tough content as a build that wasnt great offensively but held its own defensively.

you remove the threat of death (and xp penalty is basically the main threat along with losing all portals) and whats the reason to not go glass cannon and just instaphase toughest bosses in the game ?

Why remove the death penalty completely when you can move it to the content ran? It's important to have a decent danger/reward ratio even concerning EXP...

Why not increase said penalty to actually have a distinct impact on the zerging that is always allowed when you reach a level up?

They should have done that a very long time ago, next to the damn ramping of power creep to oblivion which makes PoE a damn "Clicker Heroes zoom zoom meta shooter" these days...

They can still do so, yet, the only accent they place is only on offense being the best defense, and close to 0 focus on content regarding attrition and sustain...

I also like to feel close to invincible, and be actually penalized for my own faults regarding lackluster piloting skills and/or incompetence when building/min-maxing a character... Those are legit deaths, and those should actually be more frequent than the ones due to technical problems, overtuned content and bloat & post death monster effects...

I do hope PoE will actually improve on said aspects a lot, sooner the better...