I know you guys hate Trade. But come on!!!

"

cronus wrote:

the limit applies before the filtering. it wouldn't make sense otherwise cause the real work (causing load) the database has to do internally is in looking up all table entries and sort them.

I guess yeah, ddos don't care about anything else anyway then, I should have thought that through.

"

cronus wrote:

there has to be a limit, i think poe.trade also has one but it's just set higher cause he only provides his service to english players while ggg's trade interface is international.

I expect Garena to have its own servers and tools for the Chinese and Korean speaking populations though, so who else is left that is not using poe.trade ?

( Consoles do also have their own system, or ? )

Yeah the limit probably limits the query execution time but nothing stop from sorting before that limit.... make no sense

And they just said they will increase the limit by 3 times now... so again makes no sense. If they do that on a blink like he just said mean the servers has the power to deal with it.

and I'M pretty sure DDOS is irrelevant here... There is mechanism in place (like throttling) that detect this kind of stuff and temporary ban or throttle those ip adresses.....

Also they are probably hosting their stuff on amazon AWS or google cloud, no company is dumb enough in 2019 to support their own infra accross the world by themselves.

There is probably a technical reason behind and as a backend developper I would be really curious to know.

"

cronus wrote:

the limit applies before the filtering. it wouldn't make sense otherwise cause the real work (causing load) the database has to do internally is in looking up all table entries and sort them.

with proper indexing in the database that is a non-issue but thinking about it, it might be related to their currency system. They need a common denominator to have an efficient sorting and as the trade market changes they can't assume 2 alch is 1 chaos so they can't store an universal convertion value in the database they can easily sort so they have to process that value before sorting (something they do implicitly when you specify a min and a max currency probably)

Also they are probably using an Aggregator Pattern :

"

We have talked about resolving the aggregating data problem in the API Gateway Pattern. However, we will talk about it here holistically. When breaking the business functionality into several smaller logical pieces of code, it becomes necessary to think about how to collaborate the data returned by each service. This responsibility cannot be left with the consumer, as then it might need to understand the internal implementation of the producer application.

Solution
The Aggregator pattern helps to address this. It talks about how we can aggregate the data from different services and then send the final response to the consumer. This can be done in two ways:

1. A composite microservice will make calls to all the required microservices, consolidate the data, and transform the data before sending back.

2. An API Gateway can also partition the request to multiple microservices and aggregate the data before sending it to the consumer.

It is recommended if any business logic is to be applied, then choose a composite microservice. Otherwise, the API Gateway is the established solution.

Which would explain why sorting isnt applied on every query. That is my suspicion, I might be wrong though (I have similar problem at work but my data is way less complicated and dont have the same order of magnitude).

"

Fruz wrote:

I expect Garena to have its own servers and tools for the Chinese and Korean speaking populations though, so who else is left that is not using poe.trade ?
( Consoles do also have their own system, or ? )

isn't the contract with garena gone for good? they migrated the garena users years ago and russia joined the world realm.

poe.trade is used for english speakers only. everybody else is using pathofexile.com/trade/ in the language of their client.

imho, the missing translation has been the main reason ggg did their own trade platform, cause emmitt wouldn't for whatever reason. well, and of course to have a backup in case emmitt shuts down his service.

consoles use a ingame trade system, also the chinese poe client. but i don't know much about the latter.

"

ffogell wrote:

with proper indexing in the database that is a non-issue but thinking about it, it might be related to their currency system. They need a common denominator to have an efficient sorting and as the trade market changes

i also think this also an issue but not the one here.

the ignored offers and the shown offers in the op were both in chaos orbs. there is just a hard limit how many datasets are processed and sorted (by currency).

this also explains why you somethimes get no buy requests and suddenly you get a massive influx (usually shortly after entering a highlevel map).

---

while i apreciate ggg's openness their statements can also backfire cause the next thing people will think of is how to get into the offers which get processed.

"

TheLockedGuy wrote:

So a few of my lethal prides won't show up in GGG's official search engine. No surprise there.

But trying to search for one using GGG's official tool is damn stupid. And the prices are even more messed up.

So I went to poe.trade and looked them up. Selling for 5c. sounds right. Go to GGG official site. And they are selling for over 40c. Like wtf.

So as a test bought 3 for 5c only one of them showed up on GGG's official site. And sold it in like 2 seconds for 40c. I guess you call go to town making money buying stuff from the working 3rd party website. And marking it up 800%.

Sold the other two on poe.trade again for 4c. So made about 33c profit in about a min. Because GGG don't want to make things correctly.

At least people who don't work for GGG know how to code. And yet GGG still don't want an AH.

Hell don't believe me? Than compare them now for your own reference.

Official GGG = 40c
poe.trade = 5c (what it should be)



Note: this is done on 7/21 and with no filters other than the Jewel's name. At least other websites show all items being sold. GGG purposely omit items to mess with the market.

gotta wonder how people would feel about their listings not showing...

after all - people do actually PAY to have premium stash tabs to sell stuff, and yet their listings might not show... another reason this trading system is really bad.

"

gotta wonder how people would feel about their listings not showing...

after all - people do actually PAY to have premium stash tabs to sell stuff, and yet their listings might not show... another reason this trading system is really bad.

Well this exact same problem would still exist with an AH, so lets not even go there in this thread.

This is a huge problem with the way items are indexed and listed when search terms are not specific enough. One I didn't even know about until OP made this thread, and one that's unacceptable and inexcusable.

POE has too many players trading too many items for there to be any limit whatsoever. 15,000 isn't nearly enough. 100,000 isn't enough. FIVE thousand is the punchline to a bad joke. The only acceptable number is unlimited, and if technological limitations make this impossible the website needs to return ZERO results with an error message, something akin to "Search terms too broad [over 5000 results], consider specifying item rolls or a buyout price."

I mean... seriously, GGG?

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

"

gotta wonder how people would feel about their listings not showing...

after all - people do actually PAY to have premium stash tabs to sell stuff, and yet their listings might not show... another reason this trading system is really bad.

Well this exact same problem would still exist with an AH, so lets not even go there in this thread.

This is a huge problem with the way items are indexed and listed when search terms are not specific enough. One I didn't even know about until OP made this thread, and one that's unacceptable and inexcusable.



I mean... seriously, GGG?

um....my post said nothing about auction house.

my post said "another reason this trading system is really bad".

i'm open to many alternatives. for example, reducing/eliminating the need for players to use trade, and my most recent post alluded exactly to that.

the thing that has been most fun about this league for me is my reduced need to access trade. map drops have been significantly increased and i've spent much more of my time playing rather than whispering. that's an alternative that has nothing to do with implementing an auction house at all.

my position is the current state of trading is awful, and that Chris has an awful paternalistic attitude towards players who do not support his vision of trade being an interruption to play and so player's complaint's about trade are either ignored or illegitemised.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Well this exact same problem would still exist with an AH, so lets not even go there in this thread.

WTF are you even talking about there?

First of all a PROPER indexing-system has no need to take out any listings at all. Also they would be immediate as only a small amount of the database is used.
Further unhinging the functionality for selling from tabs would allow specified slots to exist in a system made specially for that. This further lowers the strain on the indexing-process.

Do that and you can show every single item available, even if there are millions of a single type and thousands of queries per minute for those.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

This is a huge problem with the way items are indexed and listed when search terms are not specific enough. One I didn't even know about until OP made this thread, and one that's unacceptable and inexcusable.

Yes, one which GGG should've solved leagues ago even, by now they're simply ripping off customers with their lack of functionality. Everyone who bought a premium-tab has bought the ability to list items. Not showing all of those is just fucking them over, plain and simple.

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

POE has too many players trading too many items for there to be any limit whatsoever. 15,000 isn't nearly enough. 100,000 isn't enough. FIVE thousand is the punchline to a bad joke. The only acceptable number is unlimited, and if technological limitations make this impossible the website needs to return ZERO results with an error message, something akin to "Search terms too broad [over 5000 results], consider specifying item rolls or a buyout price."

You realize that a proper indexer can also handle a vide variety of queries? There just needs to be the proper setup behind it. Each mod with a separate flag, maxed rolls a separate flag and so on?
This decreases the time for each respective one drastically as only a fraction of the database gets accessed each time. Even more so if 'snapshots' are made at specific intervals, let's say items always get listed and de-listed in 5 minute intervals to ease the burden. For consumables this needs to be lower definitely, 30 seconds is a viable time-frame there, also a far smaller amount of data present to make this happen.

So no, unless you have billions of items available of every single type then it's not an issue. Everyone offline can just automatically be removed from being visible at all, also eases the burden and stops those 'but xyz sells it for 40c cheaper!' while this guy wasn't online for a month.

"

Kulze wrote:

You realize that a proper indexer can also handle a vide variety of queries?

last time i got some info, ggg were still using postgreSQL for storing stuff.

i worked with that db but no complex stuff. i'm just interrested on how do you build a "proper indexer" around it for the several thousands of item types, hundreds of different affixes and affix value ranges items can have?

then there are several leagues with individual markets.

additionally, players can search for prices in all the currencies the game curently has.
that's alot of index tables you will have there and it's a permanently updated db with incoming data from 10+ gameservers and the forum entries from the realm server constantly need to be merged.

it's sad that the times ggg would take the efforts to explain their implementations are gone.