Innocence Rework (Or lack Thereof)

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Fruz wrote:

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Yes I have, but it is often not telegraphed properly and part of the voiceless chain. It's hard to dodge most of the time due to the sheer speed of the god in question.

You might just be standing too far from Innocence, the closer you are, the easier dodging the beam is.

And in general, it's easier to see telegraphs coming if the target is fully visible.

The beam isn't a potential one shot, so it's not a big deal if you tank the first or two first seconds, so there isn't really a need for a big telegraph for it.

Yea, to avoid the bullet hell, see the problem here? It compounds itself into a stressful rage inducing event. Avoid the beam, then the slam, then the bullet hell then the adds all without voice work or proper telegraphs.

For the beam criticism it takes about 0.5 seconds to connect with me as I'm moving. 0.3 to reach my brain it has occurred and then 0.2 to react (rough estimates). In that time he may have critical hit me or gone into another attack which he did not signal due to overlapping animations and voice lines (or lack thereof). Too much can happen all at once without a tell at all which implies he needs further work to balance or re-time the various attacks.

I personally would worship GGG if they removed all bullet hell monsters and bosses from the game and instead created a series of interesting decisions based upon single target challenge.

From my own experience, I always have had enough time to see the bullet hell incoming, and run until the opposite edge of the Arena before projectiles come near enough, where I can dodge them.
While this is happening, I never had innocence do something else, I just go back closer to him when the phase is over.


Why without the voice ? There is always an audio clue.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

For the beam criticism it takes about 0.5 seconds to connect with me as I'm moving. 0.3 to reach my brain it has occurred and then 0.2 to react (rough estimates). In that time he may have critical hit me or gone into another attack which he did not signal due to overlapping animations and voice lines (or lack thereof).

- the beam is a degeneration-type effect : it cannot crit.
- he has a downtime, he does not directly starts telegraphing something else 0.1 sec after he finishes channeling his beam. I would say that it takes at least one second, and most likely he does not do one other big telegraph right after but I have not really paied attention to that.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

I personally would worship GGG if they removed all bullet hell monsters and bosses from the game and instead created a series of interesting decisions based upon single target challenge.

a) the game is too fast for that at this point I think
b) that's asking a lot from GGG, even though boss-designers and character designers might be different people, GGG have been resorting to cheap difficulty tricks for a long time now, expecting "interesting decisions" in such fight is something that I would personally not expect. It's more about cluttering the screen with effects and sneakily adding something in the chaos that is going to kill you nowadays in PoE.

While I appreciate Fruz and others attempting to use logic to convince the whiners that they are wrong, doing so does everyone the disservice of pretending that this is a remotely valid point worthy of legitimate discussion.

It isn't.

If you think Innocence is too hard: shut up and get good.

/thread

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

While I appreciate Fruz and others attempting to use logic to convince the whiners that they are wrong, doing so does everyone the disservice of pretending that this is a remotely valid point worthy of legitimate discussion.

It isn't.

OP: shut up and get good.

/thread

GGG asked for feedback on their reworks, I did just that and suggested ways to make the game better. Dodre and Innocence need reworking. You can either attack the feedback or offer ways to make my play better.

I see you're also taking a page out of the Dark Souls "Git Gud" to that I say goodnight.

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Fruz wrote:

From my own experience, I always have had enough time to see the bullet hell incoming, and run until the opposite edge of the Arena before projectiles come near enough, where I can dodge them.
While this is happening, I never had innocence do something else, I just go back closer to him when the phase is over.


Why without the voice ? There is always an audio clue.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

For the beam criticism it takes about 0.5 seconds to connect with me as I'm moving. 0.3 to reach my brain it has occurred and then 0.2 to react (rough estimates). In that time he may have critical hit me or gone into another attack which he did not signal due to overlapping animations and voice lines (or lack thereof).

- the beam is a degeneration-type effect : it cannot crit.
- he has a downtime, he does not directly starts telegraphing something else 0.1 sec after he finishes channeling his beam. I would say that it takes at least one second, and most likely he does not do one other big telegraph right after but I have not really paied attention to that.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

I personally would worship GGG if they removed all bullet hell monsters and bosses from the game and instead created a series of interesting decisions based upon single target challenge.

a) the game is too fast for that at this point I think
b) that's asking a lot from GGG, even though boss-designers and character designers might be different people, GGG have been resorting to cheap difficulty tricks for a long time now, expecting "interesting decisions" in such fight is something that I would personally not expect. It's more about cluttering the screen with effects and sneakily adding something in the chaos that is going to kill you nowadays in PoE.

Have a look around and you'll find there are plenty of sound bugs and for some reason myself and similar people find these issues and have them all at once. Innocence is a hot spot of this issue leading to issues with telegraphing which is what needs to be reworked here.

Thank you for correcting me on the beam. This downtime however doesn't exist when I fight him and the other posters that complain about him or give feedback on his design. It is possible to create interesting decisions within the fight, it'd actually require intelligent thinking to get around it. Such as say my cold damage isn't working so I change round a few things or attack from a different angle. These decisions are repressed when the screen gets filled with effects making it impossible to dodge or recover from that first death.

Again they asked for feedback and I delivered. Defending a bad design is evident of a greater problem within the game itself. I'm willing to surrender a bit of mechanical complexity in exchange for better boss designs, where isn't the fault of the designer you died but yours. With every other boss in the game I feel that is the case; Dominus, Malachai, Act 7 Spider Boss after the rework, Most map bosses and the Shaper/Elder crew fit that. Innocence right now doesn't fit that roll at the moment. That's why I brought up those examples in my original post (along side some from other similar games) and why I continue to say I have experienced animation overlap, sound almost constantly not playing and attacks not telegraphing properly or at all. Out of the high quality of the game it's disappointing and frustrating to go through.

If I could directly contact GGG I would.

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Littledragon01 wrote:

You can either attack the feedback or offer ways to make my play better.

I already did.

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

All of you who find Innocence dangerous need to be (ab)using the new Guard skills to protect from his damage spikes.

That's what those skills are FOR.

So I repeat:

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

If you think Innocence is too hard: shut up and get good.

/thread

/thread

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

While I appreciate Fruz and others attempting to use logic to convince the whiners that they are wrong, doing so does everyone the disservice of pretending that this is a remotely valid point worthy of legitimate discussion.

While I do not think that the Innocence fight is really problematic, I remember that I got caught completely unaware on a barely telegraphed move that took away ~90% of my health buffer at once during leveling.

When Innocence rushes next to the user and there is barely anytime to see a circle on the floor that the next second the hit already has landed.
This one thing really could use a big more of a delay before the hit 'lands', since it's quite a big AOE and it HURTS.
I almost ripped to that, it was not my tankiest ( especially since I blindly got in without much thought in it, knowing the fight ) and I almost ripped to that.
The second time .... I dodged it, but to me, a well designed boss should not have such a deadly move if you cannot find out how to avoid it in the fly the first time.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

Have a look around and you'll find there are plenty of sound bugs and for some reason myself and similar people find these issues and have them all at once. Innocence is a hot spot of this issue leading to issues with telegraphing which is what needs to be reworked here.

Hm ... I have not experienced that, if it's a technical issue it's a different topic then, it's just boss design anymore.

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LittleDragon01 wrote:

Have a look around and you'll find there are plenty of sound bugs and for some reason myself and similar people find these issues and have them all at once. Innocence is a hot spot of this issue leading to issues with telegraphing which is what needs to be reworked here.

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Hm ... I have not experienced that, if it's a technical issue it's a different topic then, it's just boss design anymore.

I'm pretty sure that the sound thing is puerly sever communication, I'll drop a post in the technical support forum (though my experience there has left much to be desired).