Innocence Rework (Or lack Thereof)

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

All of you who find Innocence dangerous need to be (ab)using the new Guard skills to protect from his damage spikes.

That's what those skills are FOR.

I didn't die during Innocence as melee, and I wasn't even dodging his bullet hells: fire resist plus molten shell allowed my chieftain to sit on Innocence and eat that damage like it was nothing.

The skill floor and ceiling have both been raised with the instant guard skills and animation cancelling mechanics. Players need to either rise with them or accept that their skill level is more in line with summoners and chaos degen builds.

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Mythreindeer wrote:

You absolutely must be patient in this fight. When Innocence is firing you must run and dodge around the "bullets." When he's finished you get in range and fire and then run away again. There's no reason you shouldn't have elemental resists capped by this fight, you must have some defenses and you must have flasks. There's no reason to dumb it down. Think of the many thousands of times this has fight has been won before you, deathless. Just Google it if you need to learn the mechanics.

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鬼殺し wrote:

I love it when I read something eloquent and compelling with which I disagree.

I'll happily elaborate if you'd like (that's a caveat regarding my tendency to bloviate, to save you going through my post history) but I just wanted to note that I appreciated the effort you put into expressing your views beyond the usual kindergarten-level tantrums.

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Littledragon01 wrote:

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

All of you who find Innocence dangerous need to be (ab)using the new Guard skills to protect from his damage spikes.

That's what those skills are FOR.

I didn't die during Innocence as melee, and I wasn't even dodging his bullet hells: fire resist plus molten shell allowed my chieftain to sit on Innocence and eat that damage like it was nothing.

The skill floor and ceiling have both been raised with the instant guard skills and animation cancelling mechanics. Players need to either rise with them or accept that their skill level is more in line with summoners and chaos degen builds.

Very nice to state crap about skill level, but none of them last long enough to do anything or reduce damage enough to be useful. They also take valuable gem space which could be put towards support gems or better crafted modifiers. 2 seconds of -70% damage is not enough against Innocence who can sustain damage for up to 10 seconds with his beam.

I refuse to be told "You can't play your favorite style because you suck" because that is what you are implying and insulting anyone trying anything new.
Chaos is unbalanced as a fat man on a seesaw and summoners make the game ridiculously easy to the point of reducing the point in playing the game in the first place.

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

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Littledragon01 wrote:

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

All of you who find Innocence dangerous need to be (ab)using the new Guard skills to protect from his damage spikes.

That's what those skills are FOR.

I didn't die during Innocence as melee, and I wasn't even dodging his bullet hells: fire resist plus molten shell allowed my chieftain to sit on Innocence and eat that damage like it was nothing.

The skill floor and ceiling have both been raised with the instant guard skills and animation cancelling mechanics. Players need to either rise with them or accept that their skill level is more in line with summoners and chaos degen builds.

Very nice to state crap about skill level, but none of them last long enough to do anything or reduce damage enough to be useful. They also take valuable gem space which could be put towards support gems or better crafted modifiers. 2 seconds of -70% damage is not enough against Innocence who can sustain damage for up to 10 seconds with his beam.

I refuse to be told "You can't play your favorite style because you suck" because that is what you are implying and insulting anyone trying anything new.
Chaos is unbalanced as a fat man on a seesaw and summoners make the game ridiculously easy to the point of reducing the point in playing the game in the first place.

I don't know what else you want anyone to say. The part I changed to red is 100% false; you push ONE button to instantly take 70-75% less damage for about a second. Literally ZERO of Innocence's abilities are so fast that you can't get a steelskin or molten shell up in time to save you. They absolutely make this fight a joke, which (as I said) is what they are designed to do.

If you die, it is either 100% your fault for not using the tools available to you, or 100% your fault for not playing better.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Excellent.

First caveat: I had the distinct (lack of) pleasure testing Innocence on alpha way back before 3.0 deployed, and I'm not afraid to admit that my first encounter with him was two hours long and left me in tears. Like, serious 2am I've-been-testing-this-bug-ridden-monster-all-day frustration. I could not believe GGG had the temerity to put such an overt bullet hell experience that early into the game.

But here's the twist: at that point in testing, Innocence had no voicework. We weren't told any was coming either. So if you feel that Golden Spicy Boy isn't telegraphing well enough now, imagine it without that tell-tale booming voice declaring "I AM" every three seconds. So when those were added, I was by proxy a grandmaster of Innocence-slaying. That's my perspective and my bias -- I learned how to deal with a much harder Innocence than ever actually existed in the game proper.

That said, there are times when he'll fire off his 'I AM YOUR GOD' ball of death with absolutely no vocal warning. And sometimes he'll do it without a statue to hide behind. I treat these as bugs and I have a very particular response to bugs: I cheat. I ALWAYS have a portal up during the Innocence fight and I gladly use it if I feel the game isn't playing fair. And, if you want to really abuse that old mechanic, you can portal back to town when he enters his minion spam phase "I AM YOUR EMPEROR", come back and enjoy 20+ seconds of complete immunity as the filler content tries to end you.

So that's the first essential. Have a portal up.

But absent those bugs, I think he telegraphs just fine and I sort of suck at the Souls games. I do not die to Innocence, ever. Not as a double strike trickster. Not as a Divine Ire Marauder. Not as a dual strike Assassin. No matter what, I stay mobile and prepared. If I hear "I AM THE TORCH" I get ready to run in a circle. If I here "I AM THE END" I zip away from the anticipated blast radius of the mace smash. And if I hear "I AM YOUR GOD" I seek shelter behind a statue and pray it doesn't come to life, in which case see plan B aka portaling out.

Second caveat: I dislike Cyclone intensely. I still have PTSD from back when we had desync and it wasn't channeled and basically the skill was a chaotic experience that locked you into some very precarious situations. Even now I think it's too much of a commitment for a game demanding tactical flexibility but obviously it's very popular this league and so I imagine plenty of people have used it against Innocence with no real problems. So I can't give you advice there, only believe that Cyclone in its current state must be sufficient for dealing with him.

Third caveat: I've only just started using the guard skills and I don't trust my reflexes to do so reliably. Just as prevention is better than cure, avoidance trumps mitigation. But if you're in the middle of a cyclone spin and he winds up for a big hit, steelskin will almost certainly save your bacon.

Any instance of Innocence unleashing a big skill without telegraphing should be treated as a bug, not a design feature. This is why I feel he doesn't need a rework, only a bug pass or two. Design-wise I think he's one of the best bosses in the game.

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Very nice to state crap about skill level, but none of them last long enough to do anything or reduce damage enough to be useful. They also take valuable gem space which could be put towards support gems or better crafted modifiers. 2 seconds of -70% damage is not enough against Innocence who can sustain damage for up to 10 seconds with his beam.

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Fruz wrote:

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Very nice to state crap about skill level, but none of them last long enough to do anything or reduce damage enough to be useful. They also take valuable gem space which could be put towards support gems or better crafted modifiers. 2 seconds of -70% damage is not enough against Innocence who can sustain damage for up to 10 seconds with his beam.

Have you ever thought about .... not standing in the beam ? Oo

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Littledragon01 wrote:

Yes I have, but it is often not telegraphed properly and part of the voiceless chain. It's hard to dodge most of the time due to the sheer speed of the god in question.