Rage Support!

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Wow, this thread really went... somewhere.

When I made it in the first place, I wasn't even considering Berserk (even though, as has been brought up, Berserk looks pretty awesome).

I was literally talking about the Rage Support, and the combination of how much flat physical damage AND attack speed it gives. Those two combined make the gem MUCH stronger than Melee Physical Damage Support / Damage on Full Life in terms of raw DPS output, because they're the two best ways of scaling attack damage. The flat physical is added to the base damage of the weapon, and scales multiplicatively with all subsequent increased and more and extra modifiers as well as conversion mechanics.

So before you say IS NOT GOOD THO BECAUSE PERCENT DAMAGE IS INCREASED, maybe actually do the math and see the effect two Abyssuses worth of flat physical damage added to your weapon actually has on your DPS. And then consider that this comes with "More Than Onslaught" 's worth of attack speed. For my leaguestarter, it had an equivalent effect on my DPS to a lvl 29 Melee Phys support (58% More Physical Damage).

It's absolutely crazy how strong this is, for a support that ALSO gives twofold utility (10% movement speed and enables the Berserk skill). Ideally, a support gem that gives utility (fortify, maim, etc) doesn't ALSO unconditionally give superior damage to Melee Phys.

wow...

i did the math in this thread and showed that with a resanable build+medicore items rage is only slightly better than melee physical dmg.
there are stronger support gems out there than melee physical gem

you are forgetting another big thing regarding added flat dmg
most melee skills themself have now added dmg in them which lowers the value of flat added dmg even further...

dont get me wrong,flat added dmg is a very strong stat but its defenitly weaker than another more multipler. on top of that the flat added dmg is reduced or increased by dmg effectiveness depending on the skill this makes a huge difference

multipler will always be stronger as long as the base dmg is high enough and there are a lot of ways to get added flat dmg.
rings,amulets,abyss jewels,heralds

i assumed that the full flat dmg of the rage support gem adds around 33% of your weapon dmg without considering all other sources and the result was around a 8% more dmg increase at full rage

if you just added the bonus flat dmg from the melee skill it will already push the 33% down to 25%,adding all sources will push it down to 23-20%.
at that point the rage support gem is weaker than melee physical dmg

the last paragraph...

rage is more conditional than melee physical dmg support...
you need full 50 stacks to make the support worth and its restricted to physical dmg only
plz dont answer with "but you can convert the flat physical dmg",yes you can but you can convert the more physical dmg from melee physical as well

btw the 10% movementspeed is nice,but again if youalready have good amount of movementspeed it becomes less and less valueable...
+10% at 40%movementspeed is strong,but with all the options to get onslought,quicksilver flask,passiv tree and ascendancys you are more likely to run around with 100%+ movemenspeed.
movementspeed simply has a diminishing return the higher you get

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smtad wrote:

You assume that you can always get 50 rage. But it's not.

For some bosses, you need at least 20 sec or 15 sec to warm up before getting full rage. (ex. The Shaper, Uber Elder)

he even called it "uncononditinally" ....

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ciel289 wrote:

wow...

i did the math in this thread

If by "did the math" you mean "said some things that were wrong," then... sure, I guess you did? Because your claim that flat phys isn't as good when you have a good weapon is... the exact opposite of correct. The better your weapon gets, the MORE important flat physical becomes, because it's scaled multiplicatively by your attack speed.

And I DO call Rage unconditional, because sustaining it requires you to either:
A, attack an enemy with the supported skill, or
B, get hit by literally anything
once every 4 seconds. I don't know how YOU map, but there's absolutely no way a reasonable person won't have 100% uptime on that. The only way you aren't sustaining rage is if you're constantly dying.

I don't know what point you're even trying to make, because you made mine FOR me when you said "only slightly better than Melee Physical Damage." So you agree that a skill that gives you utility IS better at doing damage than a skill that does absolutely nothing except give you damage? And you really don't see the issue here? Oof.

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

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ciel289 wrote:

wow...

i did the math in this thread

If by "did the math" you mean "said some things that were wrong," then... sure, I guess you did? Because your claim that flat phys isn't as good when you have a good weapon is... the exact opposite of correct. The better your weapon gets, the MORE important flat physical becomes, because it's scaled multiplicatively by your attack speed.

And I DO call Rage unconditional, because sustaining it requires you to either:
A, attack an enemy with the supported skill, or
B, get hit by literally anything
once every 4 seconds. I don't know how YOU map, but there's absolutely no way a reasonable person won't have 100% uptime on that. The only way you aren't sustaining rage is if you're constantly dying.

I don't know what point you're even trying to make, because you made mine FOR me when you said "only slightly better than Melee Physical Damage." So you agree that a skill that gives you utility IS better at doing damage than a skill that does absolutely nothing except give you damage? And you really don't see the issue here? Oof.

you are the one whos wrong...
flat added dmg becomes less important the slower you attack and the higher your weapon dmg is...
there is no multipler to added dmg....

if the hit of your weapon is 140-300 dmg added flat dmg will add it to that hit at 100% value

for a full stacked rage you would add 59-72 dmg to the weapon that has 140-300 dmg ending up at 199-372 hit dmg
this means a dmg increase of 30%

the thing is other sources of added dmg stack the same way so if you use cyclone it would add another 56-85
so the hit would do 196-385 dmg and add the 59-72 for a fully stacked rage,ending up at 252-457 increasing the hit dmg by 22%
this shows that the higher your hit before you add rage flat bonus is the lower the increase from rage is

this hit than gets multiplied by dmg effectivness of the skill you use + other support gems

yes keeping up rage isnt that hard,but i brought that up when the_human_tornado brought up the skill berserk
berserk obviously makes the rage support gem inconsistent and it changes the reason why you pick rage support in that case.
using berserk means you care about the rage stacks not the added dmg the rage support gem offers

it still doesnt change the fact that rage is a conditional,easy or not you need the rage stacks to profit from it and those stacks arent active by default.