Can we just let Zana sell us all the maps already!

"

bex_HB wrote:

"

Xystre wrote:

I quit that quest on 10/15 because I couldnt tolerate anymore having to pm 20-30 people for red maps, the higher it went the worse it was for me.

no shaper kill for me I guess.

And I agree with you.

never had to whisper more than 5 this season, trading heavy

... you maybe whispered the same player who put in 20 maps of same type? :D

Or didnt use the basically fool prove method of sorting by recent listings on the official site.

"

Kulze wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

And not need to run any really hard rolled map ever again ?


Seems like a brilliant idea there, remove some incentive incentive to run corrupted red, since you could MF low level maps, buy the high level map and run all guardians white to unlock the shaper's realm.

/s

Can you even read? How does a boss-drop with a fixed weighting make MF more viable in low-tier? It stays the same it is now, just that there is an item available which is useful.

Can you even think ?
The OP didn't propose a drop.

at all

"

neostars wrote:

After you completed the map Zana should sell you the maps that you have completed.

I mean, it even is in the thread's title like WTF?!

"

Kulze wrote:

Go ahead, roll 20 T5 maps and put sextants around, then use prophecies/fragments/scarabs and run them with a MF setup. The outcome will be EXACTLY the same as when you're doing a T16 where you're not picking up any items.

That was .... my point Oo

Like what the hell, if you can BUY any maps that you've completed at Zana, there would be little incentive to run any of those maps with high roll to even try sustaining high maps, you could have a complete half built MF glass canon and farm low maps endlessely to get currency and buy higher ones .... that you could then run white, like guardians for example.

Of course I would not find it fun but ...


And now you're going crazy about Syndicate here ??




t___________t

"

goetzjam wrote:

Try sustaining with 10 maps and RNG vs 100 maps with RNG. Odds are in 10 maps you might run down to a few before being able to climb back up again, if you have a 100 maps in standard, you aren't going to run down to "dangerous" levels because you have a larger pool to account for the RNG variance.

That's why I returned to standard, where it is worse since you don't have the Nexus and it's harder to sustain in general at the moment.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Not everything is about progressing in levels at a super efficient rate. The atlas is so large that in fact you won't progress it faster then you outpace the content in terms of difficulty. But that also has to do with power creep and the ever so expanding amount of maps on the atlas.

Fall back is weird, you have the option for 5-6 c? From zana to make any t10 a t15 map, so you can only fall back further than that if you fail to do zana's questline or if you aren't willing to put 6c investment into a t15 map (which is a point in itself)

Absolutely true, falling back is weird... but it happens at the beginning of a league. If you#re playing efficient you'll try to get the equipment needed for the next step ahead. If you then have 30c left since you're progressing efficient, the map pool runs out and you don't get anything proper with 5 tries... you're screwed.
Also if you do, there's still a high chance you'll again fall back down as your map-pool is so small that you won't sustain afterwards either.

As you've said, a bigger pool causes easier sustain, a smaller does make it harder. So if we can't obtain a large pool then it's always harder until we get lucky.

That's what's a major turn-off in general. Also it favors people who have an advantage already HEAVILY.

At the time you're using the Zana T15 mod... you won't make the Chaos back, you're getting lower... and lower... and lower... which is also a way of loosing progress as you can't use it for crafts, you can't sell the maps which drop as you need them, and with bad luck it dries up. This happened 1 time for me from those 4 fallbacks. Was awful and made me understand what beginners complain about very well.

"

goetzjam wrote:

And now you're going crazy about Syndicate here ??

It's because I'm loosing the ability to differentiate between the different threads as the arguments are always the same 3-4 presented and nothing else, which then get dismantled and the posters turn around in circles.

"

That's why I returned to standard, where it is worse since you don't have the Nexus and it's harder to sustain in general at the moment.

I don't think it really is or should be. Obviously nexus makes it easier, but you still have all the other side things that drop maps.


Delve, temples, ect.

"

Absolutely true, falling back is weird... but it happens at the beginning of a league. If you#re playing efficient you'll try to get the equipment needed for the next step ahead. If you then have 30c left since you're progressing efficient, the map pool runs out and you don't get anything proper with 5 tries... you're screwed.
Also if you do, there's still a high chance you'll again fall back down as your map-pool is so small that you won't sustain afterwards either.

You just do lower tier maps until you get more currency, doing the chaos recipe if you must.

"

As you've said, a bigger pool causes easier sustain, a smaller does make it harder. So if we can't obtain a large pool then it's always harder until we get lucky.

People that have larger pools, in general have forced RNG more or have invested more into their maps.

"

At the time you're using the Zana T15 mod... you won't make the Chaos back, you're getting lower... and lower... and lower... which is also a way of loosing progress as you can't use it for crafts, you can't sell the maps which drop as you need them, and with bad luck it dries up. This happened 1 time for me from those 4 fallbacks. Was awful and made me understand what beginners complain about very well.

Not sure how much currency you pull from a map, but there was someone that did a whole bunch of white maps and said on average they got XX back. Not pure chaos, but in other currencies.


I think its entirely possible that 5-6c for a t15 map level of content might be too cheap and you can probably make that per map if you thought about it.

Had I known GGG nerfed map drops this league, I would have abused the hell of of the +5 zana mod and sold my actual maps (for peoples completion) But again, GGG basically fixed it after they discovered it was too hard hand of a nerf.


Many builds could do the game content with just their AC class, levels and leveled gems, having white gear. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone that feel like they don't have the money for rolling maps or sustaining, but have plenty for "crafting"


So you you've basically asked for a way of doing higher level content and GGG basically already has it in there, if you care to spend the chaos to do so. On average (and especially this league) t15 maps are more expensive than the "fake" t15 from zana.

Its also interesting you mention selling maps, I think there is a direct correlation to those that have issues sustaining and those that sell maps. I don't have issues and I dont sell maps....

"

goetzjam wrote:

I don't think it really is or should be. Obviously nexus makes it easier, but you still have all the other side things that drop maps.

With how available Nexus is it drops more then all of those together.
Per 5 fragment Nexus run I generally tend to get 1-2 T16 maps as return.

"

goetzjam wrote:

You just do lower tier maps until you get more currency, doing the chaos recipe if you must.

Yes, and that's exactly the point.
It feels awful being forced to do low-level content while the character has the ability to easily clear content quite a lot higher.
The lack of access not because of inherent power-level of your char but just because RNG fucked you over.
That's what I'm talking about since the beginning.

"

goetzjam wrote:

People that have larger pools, in general have forced RNG more or have invested more into their maps.

Nope, otherwise I wouldn't have done that anytime before. I'm using all Zana mods regarding the mods on the map rolled, I use prophecies to increase quant and have extra mobs, I use sextants while progressing when it's an important map I can't loose.

Nonetheless it was a VAST difference in experience between Betrayal and Synthesis. Purely based on RNG.

In Betrayal I had luck, utter ridiculous luck. I had to stop at t9 because my gear couldn't keep up with progression. I made it from T5 to T16 in 7 hours.

In Synthesis I needed 1 1/2 weeks while playing the same amount, using the same top-strategies, even buying prophecies to make more mobs spawn.
Nonetheless I was forced to pick up this utter garbage trading system to even be able to run content I still outranked heavily.

That's not fine that it CAN happen. Absolutely not.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Not sure how much currency you pull from a map, but there was someone that did a whole bunch of white maps and said on average they got XX back. Not pure chaos, but in other currencies.

Sure, which forces you to trade, which then leads to sitting around in your HO and not do shit since you don't have the maps to run nor got the Chaos to get further up. This is the main reason it took me so long.

A perfect showcase as to why deterministic systems are important.

Imagine a beginner coming in the situation (Which is FAR more likely). He'll very likely leave the game for good. Should that happen? I would so no.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Many builds could do the game content with just their AC class, levels and leveled gems, having white gear. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone that feel like they don't have the money for rolling maps or sustaining, but have plenty for "crafting"

I didn't craft anything after rolling 5 belts and hitting a lucky roll, which amounted to a total of 70c spent in price while returning me 16 ex in gear, 15 ex for my belt I wear (which is worth more now) and 1 ex for a second belt which was decent, so it made me profit.

Crafting is profit if you know what you do.

"

goetzjam wrote:

So you you've basically asked for a way of doing higher level content and GGG basically already has it in there, if you care to spend the chaos to do so. On average (and especially this league) t15 maps are more expensive than the "fake" t15 from zana.

Yes, they have it in there, which isn't sustainable long-term and can screw you over.
You see, if you make options to keep your progress, you need to implement it in a fashion which is constant. If white/yellow/red are a checkpoint - which they are - then allowing to run them steadily is a given usually.

Sustaining T15 won't be possible if you're not able to unlock the T15 mod as you're forced back from T14 to T10 over and over. T10 you got a large store set up already but T11-13 are out completely. So you either upgrade T10 maps in hopes of being able to finally drop a T15 and unlock the Zana mod, while risking to fall down further and using the T1-5 shaped mod... or you're running the T10 and try to sustain this way and slowly work yourself up.

The system isn't well thought-out, there's several flaws in it, it is a nice system but just not polished properly, too many loopholes in existence.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Its also interesting you mention selling maps, I think there is a direct correlation to those that have issues sustaining and those that sell maps. I don't have issues and I dont sell maps....

If you sell T6 maps while running T12... that makes you not sustain T12? Weird logic, haven't heard that one yet actually.

"

In Synthesis I needed 1 1/2 weeks while playing the same amount, using the same top-strategies, even buying prophecies to make more mobs spawn.
Nonetheless I was forced to pick up this utter garbage trading system to even be able to run content I still outranked heavily.

And they admitted they nerfed map drops too much in synthesis, not sure why you are even mentioning this, because they have since fixed the issue.


I think in the future GGG will be more on the cautious side and make smaller adjustments down when needed to.


The trade system is fine. Its a trade system not amazon, not ebay, but more akin to craigslist. Again for maps you sort by new and use the official site and you won't have issues buying maps. If you need bulk there is options for that as well.

"

That's not fine that it CAN happen. Absolutely not.

Betrayl also had map scarabs, so not really the same.

"

Sure, which forces you to trade, which then leads to sitting around in your HO and not do shit since you don't have the maps to run nor got the Chaos to get further up. This is the main reason it took me so long.

Set sell orders up before you need the raw currency or bite the bullet and do the chaos recipe when you are starting to get low.

You have plenty of options, but you are acting like a victim because the system didn't work flawlessly for you.

"

A perfect showcase as to why deterministic systems are important.

Too an extent, you have ways of making pure chaos out of stuff you loot. you have ways of upping your maps to run higher content to build up map pool.

If you are refusing to use these tools, that's completely on you.

"

Imagine a beginner coming in the situation (Which is FAR more likely). He'll very likely leave the game for good. Should that happen? I would so no.

I'm sure people do leave because they don't use the tools they have. That doesn't mean GGG should cave on game design in order to appeal to a massive audience. POE was never meant to be that kind of game and catering to those kind of players will be the downfall of POE, if you want to even call it POE at that point.

"

Crafting is profit if you know what you do.

Ok so is doing maps :D

"

Yes, they have it in there, which isn't sustainable long-term and can screw you over.
You see, if you make options to keep your progress, you need to implement it in a fashion which is constant. If white/yellow/red are a checkpoint - which they are - then allowing to run them steadily is a given usually.

It absolutely is sustainable in long term, because people in SSF do it. They don't have access to convert currencies to chaos to increase it as much. They don't have the option to sell stuff they loot for chaos to put more into maps.

But yet they still somehow reach 100 every league and sustain a surplus of maps.

"

Sustaining T15 won't be possible if you're not able to unlock the T15 mod as you're forced back from T14 to T10 over and over. T10 you got a large store set up already but T11-13 are out completely. So you either upgrade T10 maps in hopes of being able to finally drop a T15 and unlock the Zana mod, while risking to fall down further and using the T1-5 shaped mod... or you're running the T10 and try to sustain this way and slowly work yourself up.

In otherwords, you've failed to complete the zana questline? Despite her giving you maps as you go?

"

If you sell T6 maps while running T12... that makes you not sustain T12? Weird logic, haven't heard that one yet actually.

Maybe not a t6, but if you are selling t10 maps, you are selling potential t15 maps with chaos investment on your part. If you sell t6 maps you are making so little off of it, that you are actually spending more time trying to sell that, then you would make if you just did a chaos recipe instead, solving part of your issue with chaos investment required to use zana mod.


If you are always looking for excuses to hate the system, but refuse to acknowledge its there to help, then your always going to cry when it doens't work perfectly for you.

I have no doubt that if SSF players can do maps and sustain, someone that puts enough time and effort in a trade league can. They can even shortcut it and spend min or two buying some maps here and there, by sorting by new listings on the official site. Or buying whatever maps are required to complete the zana questline, due to mistake on progressing it in the past.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I'm sure people do leave because they don't use the tools they have. That doesn't mean GGG should cave on game design in order to appeal to a massive audience. POE was never meant to be that kind of game and catering to those kind of players will be the downfall of POE, if you want to even call it POE at that point.

Which tools?
Do you mean the 3rd party website for trading?
The 3rd party loot filter (as the build-in is utter garbage)
Or the need to use a build-guide as the in-game mechanics are so badly explained you don't have a chance as a new player to create a great build besides utter luck?
Or do you mean the 3rd party encyclopedia for how to craft stuff?

You're absolutely right, PoE wasn't intended as a game for a large audience back when we had 2 Acts and rares dropped every full moon.
Though PoE isn't that game anymore, the game got bigger (not much 'better though sadly).
You see any game catering to a large variety of audience needs to take into account the knowledge-level of players, the skill-level of player and the time-investement.
There need to be content which can only be reached when you got the knowledge, this is fine, comes with Shaper/elder.
There needs to be content only available through pure skill, for the top players, we don't have anything like that at all to run at our leisure. Sure, we got deep-delve, which is just scaling so far that you need to play perfect at some instances, but it's not freely accessible at all.
Time on the other hand isn't to be trivialized. A player without knolwedge, without skill... nonetheless needs to have the ability to reach the same core-areas (Which means T16) after... 10 times as much time invested? Those are casuals.

GGG tries to cater to all 3 without taking into account that each separate group has other needs and other things they see as important. They try to cater to all of them at the same time though.
This has been the downfall of WoW already as a prime example. It just is awful that GGG repeats the absolutely same mistakes they are doing.

So, if you don't use all tools (which I do) and don't have the knowledge (which I do, more then some top-tier streamers regarding how map-sustain is handled) with the sole exception that I'm not running a MF build... then something is definitely at odds here.
You see... if I have some trouble in-between, what does anyone without this knowledge have? I'm not the most skillful player... but I'm decent. When I can't run the core-content without issues from time to time... what should someone who really needs to 'git-gut' do?

"

goetzjam wrote:

It absolutely is sustainable in long term, because people in SSF do it. They don't have access to convert currencies to chaos to increase it as much. They don't have the option to sell stuff they loot for chaos to put more into maps.

But yet they still somehow reach 100 every league and sustain a surplus of maps.

How does that take into consideration the progression-phase?
Sure, as soon as you're at a fixed point with enough rolled maps you can... but UNTIL THEN is the part I'm talking about.

"

goetzjam wrote:

In otherwords, you've failed to complete the zana questline? Despite her giving you maps as you go?

Duh... I said stuck at T14 hence no T15 map which is the one unlocking that Zana-mod? So yes... obviously when this situation happens?

Also for the last point... why are you explaining that? That's obvious... hence why I said selling T6 maps and lower. I keep a stack of maps for the future in general, that should be common-sense after all if something happens.

Much like I still have a large variety of T11-15 maps despite running only T16.
Well... and maps for good div-cards which are lower for secondary chars... which I won't do in league this time though.

"

Which tools?

Fact you need to ask that question is part of the problem.

"

Do you mean the 3rd party website for trading?

You mean the first party website for trading, that I've already suggested helps you purchase maps at a super fast rate (if that is what you want to do)

pathofexile.com/trade


First party, saying its 3rd party is wrong and just makes your argument look weak. GGG will be adding this as a semi web port inside of the game.

"

The 3rd party loot filter (as the build-in is utter garbage)

Thats your opinion, you are welcome to use 3rd party or the one they give you. The alternative was nothing, you can do that as well.


For clarification, just because something is 3rd party doesn't mean its bad. Plenty of games experiences are greatly increased by 3rd party tools\sites.

"

Or the need to use a build-guide as the in-game mechanics are so badly explained you don't have a chance as a new player to create a great build besides utter luck?

POE isn't a game that holds the hand of its players, if you want the information you can seek it out, if not, don't expect to be spoon fed it.

"

Or do you mean the 3rd party encyclopedia for how to craft stuff?

You mean the same tools created because it allows you to more easily see stuff? I'm sure with a little bit of logic you could very well figure out what is or isn't possible.

Crafting isn't a newbie mechanic anyway, aside from master crafting something on the bench, in which case prefix and suffix is explained in game pretty well.

"

You're absolutely right, PoE wasn't intended as a game for a large audience back when we had 2 Acts and rares dropped every full moon

It isn't intended to appeal to the largest audience as well. GGG welcomed D3 "refugees", but they did so knowing that they wouldn't capture all, due to the fact that POE requires time and investment in order to get the most fun out of it.

"

Though PoE isn't that game anymore, the game got bigger (not much 'better though sadly).

I can somewhat agree with that. The few things they've left unchecked, due to backlash, like movement skills and AC classes being too powerful.

"

You see any game catering to a large variety of audience needs to take into account the knowledge-level of players, the skill-level of player and the time-investement.

Sure and people can get to shaper and kill him the first league they've played in. Check any number of reddit post.

"

There need to be content which can only be reached when you got the knowledge, this is fine, comes with Shaper/elder.

It comes with the atlas. If you are too ignorant to figure out how to map or do zana's questline, then POE isn't the game for you.

"

There needs to be content only available through pure skill, for the top players, we don't have anything like that at all to run at our leisure. Sure, we got deep-delve, which is just scaling so far that you need to play perfect at some instances, but it's not freely accessible at all.

Because of its rewards. GGG isn't going to make it less rewarding, just so people can "delve freely"


The solution you want is literally rifts in d3 and I don't think GGG has intentions of copying that lazy and unfulfilling endgame mechanic.


If your only concern is the ability to do high end content to challenge your build, then perhaps a potential solution would be a free delve, that gave no currency, very, very few drops and a highly penalized XP penalty.

You are basically just suggesting here that they allow you to play any level content you want, without investment, anytime and still get rewarded. Its asinine to think that GGG worked on creating maps, working on delve and other endgame systems, but they need to add a mode so you can literally not engage in the endgame systems they've developed. Its not going to happen.

"

GGG tries to cater to all 3 without taking into account that each separate group has other needs and other things they see as important. They try to cater to all of them at the same time though.
This has been the downfall of WoW already as a prime example. It just is awful that GGG repeats the absolutely same mistakes they are doing.

The mapping system is tiered for a reason. Casual players are far more likely to reroll at 85 or 90, then they are to push forward into XP grinding territories.

GGG tries to allow ALL of them to play, while not sacrificing game design in the process. Its hard because you can't cater to the least common denominator and still have a game like POE.

What you are suggesting very much would be what WOW did, which is why GGG isn't going to cater to the players that don't want to put forth time and effort into something. Nor will they reduce RNG to the point you want it reduced, because it achieves similar things.

"

So, if you don't use all tools (which I do) and don't have the knowledge (which I do, more then some top-tier streamers regarding how map-sustain is handled) with the sole exception that I'm not running a MF build... then something is definitely at odds here.

I don't run MF builds either.


Those players that don't use all the tools or don't have all the knowledge, don't know they are missing out on stuff, therefore they don't see it as an issue like you do. Because the system is working as far as they know, even if they are getting shit RNG. You on the other hand know better, but apparently aren't willing to cough up the money.

"

You see... if I have some trouble in-between, what does anyone without this knowledge have? I'm not the most skillful player... but I'm decent. When I can't run the core-content without issues from time to time... what should someone who really needs to 'git-gut' do?

Admit that there is going to be some variance and cough up the difference in currency to fix your issue.

Currency is there to work for you, if you choose not to let it do that, that is on you.

"

How does that take into consideration the progression-phase?
Sure, as soon as you're at a fixed point with enough rolled maps you can... but UNTIL THEN is the part I'm talking about.

Until then you complete the zana questline far enough to make that chaos do the +5 map levels. And you spend the chaos you have as well as the maps she gives you to achieve that.


As you start getting higher tier maps, instead of just running them here and there and not being able to sextant them or whatever. Run 10-15 or whatever upgraded tier 10s, then take those returns you got, sextant, run ect.

Or follow any number of the mapping guides out there. This is basically what I use.

"

Duh... I said stuck at T14 hence no T15 map which is the one unlocking that Zana-mod? So yes... obviously when this situation happens?

So buy the t15 map you need to finish the questline.......


Or figure out what people in SSF do.

"

goetzjam wrote:

POE isn't a game that holds the hand of its players, if you want the information you can seek it out, if not, don't expect to be spoon fed it.

Minor accessibility isn't 'holding your hand'.
That's the exact issue I'm talking about. WHO are they catering towards?

With the buffs of ES and extra chaos back to awful levels clearly casuals.
With the nerf of maps cleary top-tier players more who don't want stuff to be trivialized.
With the implementation of absolutely out of whack syndicate top-tier players wanting harder content.
With the utter garbage Synthesis crafting... basically nobody, only top-tier who also aren't bothered with trading and play anyways.
With the speed-clear abilities like WO it's once again casuals who can't be bothered to do more then right-click and run.

"

goetzjam wrote:

It isn't intended to appeal to the largest audience as well. GGG welcomed D3 "refugees", but they did so knowing that they wouldn't capture all, due to the fact that POE requires time and investment in order to get the most fun out of it.

What are you referring to as 'fun' in this case? Can be quite a large variety and is hard to answer.

"

goetzjam wrote:

It comes with the atlas. If you are too ignorant to figure out how to map or do zana's questline, then POE isn't the game for you.

Which I'm talking about exactly. It's CORE progress, the stuff which hinders people with massive time-investment but low knowledge or skill to even get to any meaningful level.
As said, neither time, nor skill nor knowledge are allowed in a large-scale game like PoE to be trivialized.
There are simply better options available which please all 'types' in this case.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Because of its rewards. GGG isn't going to make it less rewarding, just so people can "delve freely"

Why not? Rewards hold people short-term.
Game-play holds people long-term

Do the only want retention numbers like this league? 2 weeks ok-ish and then dead?

"

goetzjam wrote:

The solution you want is literally rifts in d3 and I don't think GGG has intentions of copying that lazy and unfulfilling endgame mechanic.

Lazy mechanics aren't always bad, having such options (which don't provide the best of the best outcome) is viable in general.
The type of implementation is what makes or breaks such systems.

"

goetzjam wrote:

If your only concern is the ability to do high end content to challenge your build, then perhaps a potential solution would be a free delve, that gave no currency, very, very few drops and a highly penalized XP penalty.

Would be absolutely awesome!
But the scaling makes it bad to be an actual 'challenge' instead of bloated numbers.
Interacting with intriguing game-mechanics makes a fight interesting. This means fights like... 'The queen of the sands' in Act 9, just with a build which won't be able to kill her in 2 seconds and actually has to position itself for a minute or 2 while fighting.

That's skill.

"

goetzjam wrote:

You are basically just suggesting here that they allow you to play any level content you want, without investment, anytime and still get rewarded. Its asinine to think that GGG worked on creating maps, working on delve and other endgame systems, but they need to add a mode so you can literally not engage in the endgame systems they've developed. Its not going to happen.

Yes, time-investment is also an investment and is to be rewarded in a game. The more currency investment there is the higher the return. The higher the time-investment is, the higher the return. Simple concept.

GGG handled maps with 'everyone can access any' years ago, which... in the state it was in was even worse then the existing system.
That doesn't say that the existing system is 'great' though. It's 'acceptable' and GGG can definitely do a LOT better then that.
Well, unless they want to be an example for mediocrity.

"

goetzjam wrote:

The mapping system is tiered for a reason. Casual players are far more likely to reroll at 85 or 90, then they are to push forward into XP grinding territories.

Those are not tied to some mechanics available in those Tiers which clearly are rather representing other tiers. Syndicate calls out here especially once again, feeling like they belong... 3 tiers higher?
Makes sense to have such a system and then throw it basically overboard. Consistency isn't a great strength of GGG.

"

goetzjam wrote:

GGG tries to allow ALL of them to play, while not sacrificing game design in the process. Its hard because you can't cater to the least common denominator and still have a game like POE.

It's possible, but they fail at doing so. They DID sacrifice the MAJORITY of their game-design by now. Build-depth is heavily butchered. Progression is a mess. Items are trivialized. Content is Trivialized. Accessing content leads to trade which is by design frustrating, so accessing content is frustrating often. And so on and so forth.

"

goetzjam wrote:

What you are suggesting very much would be what WOW did, which is why GGG isn't going to cater to the players that don't want to put forth time and effort into something. Nor will they reduce RNG to the point you want it reduced, because it achieves similar things.

Classic WoW catered successfully to ALL of them. Modern WoW caters to NOBODY.
There's the difference. And GGG moves a path which is similar to modern WoW if you're looking up the design-choices explained by Blizzard back in classic and by Blizzard now, as well as the invested community there which hasn't left yet.

It's the exact same. I would wish it weren't, but the core choices are the same.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Those players that don't use all the tools or don't have all the knowledge, don't know they are missing out on stuff, therefore they don't see it as an issue like you do. Because the system is working as far as they know, even if they are getting shit RNG. You on the other hand know better, but apparently aren't willing to cough up the money.

That goes quite contrary to the common complaints seen though.

"

goetzjam wrote:

So buy the t15 map you need to finish the questline.......

Suggesting a player to use a system which by design is frustrating to get rid of frustration isn't logical. But yes, it solves the problem if you got enough Chaos left over to buy 3-4 maps which comes at the beginning of the league down to roughly 50c. After using your currency for progression before that as well most likely.

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goetzjam wrote:

Or figure out what people in SSF do.

Invest even MORE time OR be lucky compared to someone in a trade-league. T16 by me is achieved at... Day 4-6 I would say. Day 1 is Act 1-10 and Tier 1-3 and then it goes on.

Still, it hinders progression where it doesn't need to be hindered. Our time is worth something as well, and properly implementing new content so each of them is a time-sink on their own would mean that people can't do all content 'top the end'. People would actually choose what to do and pick the most enjoyable one.

If you tie everything to mapping though... well... then you need to make sure mapping is the ABSOLUTE EASIEST thing to do, the part for brainless apes basically.

Hopefully this is implemented in 3.7.