Time for GGG Retrospection on Xbox Trade

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AnExile_onthePath wrote:

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Avic_Hybana wrote:

Trade board improvements are necessary. Most of what you guys have asked for in this thread has already been asked for, for over a year now. It's the top most requested features.

I think what we are waiting for currently is the API. There's no point to build any new features for the trade board if the APi is going to render all of it useless. We don't know for sure what they are working on, but we know for sure they are working on something in this area literally right now.

Any thoughts on how the API might supercede the "terms" of the Trade Manifesto? I admit that I have never played POE on the PC and I actually had to google "API" to get an inkling of how it might work. But Chris was fairly clear in the Manifesto about Xbox Trade being hard to find, easy to trade (I think he nailed the hard part and fluffed the easy part). But if the API is going to make it easy to find things, then why not just put that functionality into the Trade Board in the first place. I can see that an API might lighten the load on GGG resources (GGG maintains the API, players and 3rd parties maintain the apps), but then it still brings into question the statements made in the Manifesto.

So my question again, how is the API going to make my POE experience materially better when Chris has said that he wants to de-emphasize trade vis a vis looting on the Xbox?

It basically means that instead of having a proper in-game trading system, you will now have to go to your desktop accross the room (or house), look up a 3rd party trading site (or GGG's), find the item, go back to your Xbox, message the user for your offer, hope he sees it and replies, then organize a trade in-game.

It will be like PC trading except with added steps and we now have to deal with ppl who use indexers.

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LucaExplo wrote:

It basically means that instead of having a proper in-game trading system, you will now have to go to your desktop across the room (or house), look up a 3rd party trading site (or GGG's), find the item, go back to your Xbox, message the user for your offer, hope he sees it and replies, then organize a trade in-game.

It will be like PC trading except with added steps and we now have to deal with ppl who use indexers.

You make it sound so much more dystopic rather than utopic - which what I also fear if the Trade Manifesto still holds - just the classic shuffle of the deck chairs on the Titanic.

So what is the bright future that other people are seeing? Making it just like PC trading would also seem to go against the Trade Manifesto. And heaven knows, the general forums have their fill of players complaining about the PC trade system too. So maybe it will be a good thing for the indexers (allow trade bots to handle the search?), but what about the more average players?

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AnExile_onthePath wrote:

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LucaExplo wrote:

It basically means that instead of having a proper in-game trading system, you will now have to go to your desktop across the room (or house), look up a 3rd party trading site (or GGG's), find the item, go back to your Xbox, message the user for your offer, hope he sees it and replies, then organize a trade in-game.

It will be like PC trading except with added steps and we now have to deal with ppl who use indexers.

You make it sound so much more dystopic rather than utopic - which what I also fear if the Trade Manifesto still holds - just the classic shuffle of the deck chairs on the Titanic.

So what is the bright future that other people are seeing? Making it just like PC trading would also seem to go against the Trade Manifesto. And heaven knows, the general forums have their fill of players complaining about the PC trade system too. So maybe it will be a good thing for the indexers (allow trade bots to handle the search?), but what about the more average players?

Exactly. I'm not excited about it because I'd much prefer an auction house with buyouts. It's what we all want but Chris gets wet at the idea of pLaYeR iNtErAcTiOn(tm). He doesn't want people "playing auction house" except we already do, only with really terrible tools at our disposal.

Well it sounds like I find myself at best a supporter of a third way, and at worst in no-person's land. I agree with Chris's guidance that looting should be dominant over trading. I just disagree with how GGG went about trying to implement that guidance. (The best explanation for the existing Xbox trade mishmash that I can figure out is that there was no time or resources available to create a tailored trade system and what we got was a Frankenstein (or MacGyver if you like it) creation of off the shelf parts.)

So I have no interest in either an API or an Auction House system that promotes trading over looting, especially one that basically opens the door for automating all or parts of trading. And that leaves me wondering what an API (if suitably restricted) brings to the table (maybe the ability to engage the trade system while away from the Xbox?) and very, very wary of auction house suggestions. In fact, I don't see how you can have "meaningful trade", without any "regulation" or "restriction", and not end up with trade dominating looting. GGG is attempting to use "trade obstruction" in lieu of trade restrictions or regulations - and it's not working out in my opinion.

On a related note, has anyone else noticed that the map market (whites and yellows is all I have used) is much more civil this League (decent pricing from a buyer's perspective and quick turn around)? I can speculate but I can't be sure exactly why - but for my part, it is indeed a very welcome change.

I haven't kept up with GGG Xbox dev quotes, but on the subject of "trading vs looting" importance:

Being able to trade is critical for the player and is more important than gaining gear from "looting."

That's a bold statement to some, but it's the truth. The basic game up to the relatively free-form play of the Atlas is generally meaningless as far as looting is concerned. After that, it's all about mapping or delving and finding the necessary, very specific, items and affixes one needs to complete a build.

What are the odds at any one time that the item you need, with the affixes you need, is going to drop? "Not even low" would be about the right odds...

But, expand the population sample of possible drops by including "all drops from all players" and the chances that the item with the affixes you want will drop go up by a large margin, bordering on "possible, if not probable."

Then, all that is left is for the person for whom that item dropped to decide to sell it on the trade board for you to have an exponentially increased chance to be able to get that item, provided you can afford it. :)

A player would have to run an absurd number of maps/delvs/instances in order to have a decent chance of seeing "item x" with "affixes x" dropping. But, with the Trade Board, that player now has access to everyone else's runs, everyone else's loot that they choose to sell.

There is only one way around the issue if GGG wants to "de-emphasize" trading on XBox and that is Crafting. That's it. That's the only way to reasonably enable a player to be able to properly gear up a desired build if some random developer element decided that XBox's Trade Board wasn't desirable as a primary item acquisition method.

I started playing on XBox with Abyss League and played partway through Incursion before taking a break. Returning for Delve, I feel that the "apparent difference" in population, reflected through the Trade Board, item availability and pricing, is pretty stark - It seems that there must be more players engaging with the Trade Board. Increased population? A more seasoned player base? I dunno, but the game seems "healthier" than it was when I took a break.

For the Trade Board, there are only two things I'd like to see:

A Boolean Search in the Item Class menu using two text boxes, one each for Prefix and Suffix, would solve a lot of the problems with the current, very general, search function. (Leave the current, general, text search as it is, just add the Boolean operator defined by the prefix/suffix search box entry.)

A toggle for the seller that allows a "Buyout Price," but that would only come into play after xx days. Alternatively, an automated function that would force a buyout function for the highest bid received after xx days. This is only intended to help to cull items for inactive/absent players to improve player impression of the Trade Board system. For instance, a friend of mine is going to be "Away from XBox" for a week. What are the players who are hoping to get his items going to do during that time? They'll get frustrated with the Trade Board system and, perhaps, the game,that's what they'll do... That's bad for business, both for the players and GGG. (This could also be limited to a "Special Buyout Stash Tab" if GGG wanted to do that for more discriminating player-vendors...

(A note of caution for devs: I would very strenuously warn against making large design changes regarding the player experience and would urge the devs to focus on polishing the gameplay elements that are already present.)

I play solo and I don't like trading because I enjoy getting loot, that's why I play loot based games like D3, POE, Grim Dawn, etc.

I know POE's focus is trading to get builds going. And I think that sucks for people like me who enjoying the game mechanics of POE, that's what drives me to play, but the drop rates of things are so bad it drives me away from playing it. Which in turn also stops me from spending any more money on the game, because I want to but I am not sure it's honestly worth it right now.

Every league so far on Xbox I play for about 1.5 weeks pretty solidly, then give up because I find it frustrating to find gear.

For me I don't really need to get great drops but a good boost in currency would be nice to be able to craft things.

The console version imo needs to be more lenient in terms of acquiring gear. There will still be a trading economy even with more frequent currency drops. So it's a win-win-ish situation.

But I know from reading the dev's comments on drops and stuff it'll never happen. Which makes me a little sad :(

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garthzombie wrote:

...For me I don't really need to get great drops but a good boost in currency would be nice to be able to craft things.
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This would be very helpful for SSF players.

Delve is, however, a huge boost for self-crafting. It's a wonderful addition and I hope they keep it, since it helps to solve one of the problems with XBox play - A lack of items available to the player due to lower player-base.

With POE in general, though, gear is much more complicated than in other similar games. There are oh-so-many stats and synergies to consider.. And, actually getting the right combinations in one slot so you can finally complete your gear-dependent build is frustrating without having access to all the other drop possibilities experienced by other players. That's one reason why SSF is so difficult.

Delve Crafting goes a long way towards solving a lot of problems, including gear-related issues and affix combination problems. It also introduces a large boost to currency drops which may actually be a bit destabilizing. (Only the devs know, for sure.)

A few of my thoughts on your comments

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Morkonan wrote:

Being able to trade is critical for the player and is more important than gaining gear from "looting."

While true to an extent, it thankfully isn't and shouldn't be the only way to play. My character is pretty well geared and I only bought my quill rain (though I 6s/5l it myself). It can't be "more important" than looting if it is the game is broken. Thankfully it really isn't. Trading is definitely important especially for specific hard to find things, but not for general gearing. I have certainly bought more things than that even for this character, I am just not wearing them at the moment.

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Morkonan wrote:

What are the odds at any one time that the item you need, with the affixes you need, is going to drop? "Not even low" would be about the right odds...

This is true for an extremely specific item, but 99.9% of the time you don't need anything that specific, you need things with good health and res or good mana and res or whatever, sure sometimes you really need cold res instead of fire res or str to support some gems or whatever, but generally you need a type of gear, type you can find lots of on trade and loot.

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Morkonan wrote:

A toggle for the seller that allows a "Buyout Price," but that would only come into play after xx days. Alternatively, an automated function that would force a buyout function for the highest bid received after xx days. This is only intended to help to cull items for inactive/absent players to improve player impression of the Trade Board system. For instance, a friend of mine is going to be "Away from XBox" for a week. What are the players who are hoping to get his items going to do during that time? They'll get frustrated with the Trade Board system and, perhaps, the game,that's what they'll do... That's bad for business, both for the players and GGG. (This could also be limited to a "Special Buyout Stash Tab" if GGG wanted to do that for more discriminating player-vendors...

I 100% don't want this. They have a filter for inactive/absent players and while I wouldn't mind a true "buyout" mechanic in PoE I know they will never implement it because it is against the very nature of the game they made. Honestly I don't mind the friction we have in trade now as accepting a trade takes 6s in my HO between maps and while I would love to Amazon Prime an item and get it immediately, waiting a bit hurts no one and is much better than the alternative that the PC gets for me, I don't want to group with random strangers have them hanging out in my HO and running around in my portals for a "trading experience". If that means I have to press LS+left arrow a few times between maps works for me.

I definitely don't want it to only turn into "autobuyout" when a person goes inactive.

I however would like an easy filter for those that have listed a asking price though that is easy to do today with the ~ search, but that isn't something everyone knows (and I didn't realize that myself for far too long).

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metfansc wrote:

..While true to an extent, it thankfully isn't and shouldn't be the only way to play. My character is pretty well geared and I only bought my quill rain (though I 6s/5l it myself). It can't be "more important" than looting if it is the game is broken. Thankfully it really isn't. Trading is definitely important especially for specific hard to find things, but not for general gearing. I have certainly bought more things than that even for this character, I am just not wearing them at the moment.

One can pretty much get to the end of the "story" campaign and on to maps using just about anything. After that, it get's more difficult, depending on the build. What if you couldn't have gotten your Quill Rain via trading? That's a defining piece of gear for your build, but it's also "only" a Unique. You could get that a number of ways other than through just straight drops.

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This is true for an extremely specific item, but 99.9% of the time you don't need anything that specific, you need things with good health and res or good mana and res or whatever, sure sometimes you really need cold res instead of fire res or str to support some gems or whatever, but generally you need a type of gear, type you can find lots of on trade and loot.

I think we can both agree that whatever gear someone needs is entirely dependent on their build and the other gear they already have.

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Morkonan wrote:

I 100% don't want this. They have a filter for inactive/absent players and while I wouldn't mind a true "buyout" mechanic in PoE I know they will never implement it because it is against the very nature of the game they made. Honestly I don't mind the friction we have in trade now as accepting a trade takes 6s in my HO between maps and while I would love to Amazon Prime an item and get it immediately, waiting a bit hurts no one and is much better than the alternative that the PC gets for me, I don't want to group with random strangers have them hanging out in my HO and running around in my portals for a "trading experience". If that means I have to press LS+left arrow a few times between maps works for me.

I definitely don't want it to only turn into "autobuyout" when a person goes inactive.

The toggle is only for online/offline players, not for players that haven't logged in for xx days or the like.

The reason I discussed it was simply trying to keep the items being bid on or showing as available "in the economy" where they belong/were intended in order to try to keep it healthy.

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I however would like an easy filter for those that have listed a asking price though that is easy to do today with the ~ search, but that isn't something everyone knows (and I didn't realize that myself for far too long).

That's one of those things that should have been included in some sort of tooltip or set of instructions or something. I found out about it by accident after reading a post during Abyss league. A visible toggle is REALLY needed so new players aren't so terribly discouraged trying to make sense of the trade market. I can't imagine how ticked off I'd be if all I could do was, for instance, a one-word search...

We all want things to be better. I want the Trade Market to be a decent, if not good, source of items that may be difficult for some players to find. I would hope that any build that is very popular on PC, and is all over the youtubes, can be played on XBox just as easily. But, that's not really the case. IF the gear is obtainable, it's at least twice as expensive, which means, logically, twice the work/playtime taken to acquire the currency to buy it. (If even.)

A league or two ago, I chose a build that advertised "Cheap, only 60 chaos, all content" and it was by a popular build creator. It was highlighted by popular "Top xxx Build for the upcoming league" youtubers. It looked awesome! And, for only 60 Chaos!

That was a several Exalts+ build, if you were lucky, on XBox. I never got all the "common gear" for it because I just couldn't get that sort of currency together without having the gear needed to farm it. :(

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Morkonan wrote:

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garthzombie wrote:

...For me I don't really need to get great drops but a good boost in currency would be nice to be able to craft things.
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This would be very helpful for SSF players.

Delve is, however, a huge boost for self-crafting. It's a wonderful addition and I hope they keep it, since it helps to solve one of the problems with XBox play - A lack of items available to the player due to lower player-base.

With POE in general, though, gear is much more complicated than in other similar games. There are oh-so-many stats and synergies to consider.. And, actually getting the right combinations in one slot so you can finally complete your gear-dependent build is frustrating without having access to all the other drop possibilities experienced by other players. That's one reason why SSF is so difficult.

Delve Crafting goes a long way towards solving a lot of problems, including gear-related issues and affix combination problems. It also introduces a large boost to currency drops which may actually be a bit destabilizing. (Only the devs know, for sure.)

Unfortunately delving sucks for me as It removes one of my skills every time I go in there, so it messes up my play style that I've been building a habbit over. So I just stopped playing, this is the soonest though, I think 5 days after the league started? I reckon if I went up to 20 seasoned devs with a pitch to remove skill slots when doing a certain task in a game and replace them with skills related to that task that can gimp a player I'd probably be laughed at. But again the poe xbox devs don't (the pc guys do they're always fixing stuff and listening to the pc crowd) care people keep buying mtx, so the money trickles in.

Sorry to sound ranty, it's just so solvable of an issue that it annoys me that it doesn't get fixed so I get annoyed when playing the game.