Death Penalty - XP Loss Is To Much

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Sighted wrote:

Spoiler

A level 90 character with a good build and appropriate gear can clear all content in the game depending of course on the players skill (and/or time invested if in SSF).

If you're dying often at level 87, your build is obviously reaching its limitation.
I suggest you either fix it though respeccing/gear, or just shrug it off, roll a new character and try a different build.

Reaching level 100 is a pipe dream for the average player and my reasoning for this statement is as follows:

Chris Wilson (GGG Founder) has mentioned on multiple occasions that POE was never designed for players to easily reach max level. The ludicrous XP requirement is intentional as is the penalty for dying.

Players that are gunning for level 100 are doing it either because it's a personal goal of theirs or they are racing for a league first.

POE was designed with replayability in mind.
Level 90 was a soft goal that the design team targeted because they worked out that once a player hit that level, they would have completed their build, had spent enough time with it to be sick of it and would be ready to try something different.
They got this pretty spot on because statistically (as stated by Chris as well), most players that play POE don't make it past level 90 and either re-roll or stop playing.

Feel free to do your own research on this; you will find this has design ethos has come directly from GGG.

Personally, I think these threads are fairly pointless as GGG will not change what they don't consider to be broken.

Which further begs the question, why did I just spend so much time replying to it?
I guess it's because I think the game is in a fantastic state at the moment and I don't want to see it become too casualized.

PoE IS ALREADY TOO CASUALIZED. Bringing back some DIFFICULTY and REAL BALANCE would make PoE more interesting and "fun".

Although encouraging players to "git gud & up to snuff" by actually letting them play the end game content a lot more often, combined with the simple movement of death EXP penalty on each map would be sufficient to see a shift towards that content too as a leveling to 100 incentive - as you're more enticed to keep improving your own gameplay skills as long as you won't waste ENTIRELY the time spent when fighting Uber Elder/Atziri WITHOUT "one shot or <3 sec spent per phase", players could actually get to ENJOY CONSTANT IMPROVEMENTS, even with the current gain EXP penalty in place...

PLAYING MINDLESSLY EASY CONTENT TO 100 SHOULD HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN THE BEST WAY TO LEVEL TO 100 - GGG really went the WRONG WAY regarding this aspect in PoE...

They should consider it "broken", the second players stop playing PoE and ask themselves DAILY what could they do to improve the "status quo", especially for the players THAT STOP PLAYING PoE altogether - player retention is abysmal through the 3 month "newly" introduced content, and giving some VIABLE long term goals would improve at least that aspect...

That's why we still provide VALUABLE FEEDBACK on the "feedback and suggestions" part of the official PoE forum...

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

PoE IS ALREADY TOO CASUALIZED. Bringing back some DIFFICULTY and REAL BALANCE would make PoE more interesting and "fun".

Although encouraging players to "git gud & up to snuff" by actually letting them play the end game content a lot more often, combined with the simple movement of death EXP penalty on each map would be sufficient to see a shift towards that content too as a leveling to 100 incentive - as you're more enticed to keep improving your own gameplay skills as long as you won't waste ENTIRELY the time spent when fighting Uber Elder/Atziri WITHOUT "one shot or <3 sec spent per phase", players could actually get to ENJOY CONSTANT IMPROVEMENTS, even with the current gain EXP penalty in place...

PLAYING MINDLESSLY EASY CONTENT TO 100 SHOULD HAVE NEVER EVER BEEN THE BEST WAY TO LEVEL TO 100 - GGG really went the WRONG WAY regarding this aspect in PoE...

They should consider it "broken", the second players stop playing PoE and ask themselves DAILY what could they do to improve the "status quo", especially for the players THAT STOP PLAYING PoE altogether - player retention is abysmal through the 3 month "newly" introduced content, and giving some VIABLE long term goals would improve at least that aspect...

That's why we still provide VALUABLE FEEDBACK on the "feedback and suggestions" part of the official PoE forum...

two problems with the current system.
The death penalty is too great past 90.
The experience gain is too slow past 90.

The amount of spike dmg is too high in higher content because they balance around instant log out mechanic - which needs to be removed.

The lack of a mechanic to regain lost xp just incentives running this dull content.
- make map mods add experience gained.
- make different map tiers have different (and much higher) minimum experience gained.
- add a currency sink or mechanic to regain the last deaths exp at a much quicker rate.

the people with more disposable income are also the people who the death penalty hurts the most as one death in the last few levels can reset a day or a weeks progress.

GGG needs to stop gating leveling and access to end game content and focus on designing fun and engaging content for the end game. It is just lazy design.

"

Alea wrote:

This is a choice; playing dps build or slower & tanky build.

Hopefully it's now possible to play it tanky and to still have a decent clear speed.

Problems are occuring in high level temple or against hard mods T16 or even T15 bosses. This must be frustrating for sure.

Theres also some ppl leveling up to 97+ with DPS characters but they are locking their gameplay in easy lower tier maps, chaining those very quickly.

I never cared about clear speed, and my main is a decently equipped Static/Lightning Strike dual wielding RT Juggernaut leveled to 99 versus any kind of "rippy" content. As long as I didn't die and I killed everyone else I felt some "fun".

Main problem is even "easier" content can be deadly if you're not paying attention - working as intended - but the end game content is too centered on damage spikes and invulnerability phases instead of a better balanced attrition and well timed "smart" use of flasks/skills/environment etc.

Going full bonkers on damage should always lead to a stagnation of progress, as something should highlight your weak spot - no sufficient defense for example - but as PoE became an arcade "pew-pew one shot for multi screen fest", reigning in the damage discrepancies between regular and "meta" builds must be done ASAP...

I don't care that anyone else is having "fun" obliterating instantly everything in the game, but I do expect that regular "common sense" decisions should lead to the same enjoyment of various builds around various items/skills/mechanics or interactions, instead of the current @#%& fest we seem to dwindle in...

If those DPS characters would have to spend >10 times the amount of time to get 100 versus leveling to 100 via end game encounters, everything would be "balanced", as the easy way should take a whole lot longer versus an enticing and difficult road.

But hey, TencentGGG might surprise us with taking PoE in a more "balanced" direction, now that they don't rely solely on players as their financial influx. Heck, even creating a balanced offline client and the current broken mandatory always online one would be a severe improvement, and I would almost pay a monthly fee for my offline enjoyment - I would favor a AAA title price for the offline version and/or an expansion moderate cost to keep my offline and online account "up to date", and this is the only game where I even consider such an option beside Star Citizen...

Regardless, PoE needs to "git gud & up to snuff" ASAP, as competition will arise, and with more options, a lot of the playerbase will be more inclined to give other games a chance...

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

TencentGGG must do is CAP DAMAGE to make fight last more than 1 sec/phase for end game content, even with all the mirror gear characters...

I'd be fine with the absolute top tier builds with absolute pinnacle gear keeping the current arcade shooter playstyle. At least then I'd have something to grind for, something to look forward to upgrading to... instead, I just directly jump into the "arcade shooter" - part of the game :/

"

MrTremere wrote:

"

Alea wrote:

This is a choice; playing dps build or slower & tanky build. (...)

This is false. Not only is killing the opponents before they can hurt you a strong defense on its own, but also any clearspeed lost for extra survivability going to bite you back when you do die in the form of extra time required to get the lost XP back.

Wait what?


You still opted to go for a slower build despite knowing the downsides, you werent forced.
Hows that not your choice?

"

Orbaal wrote:

Spoiler

"

MrTremere wrote:

"

Alea wrote:

This is a choice; playing dps build or slower & tanky build. (...)

This is false. Not only is killing the opponents before they can hurt you a strong defense on its own, but also any clearspeed lost for extra survivability going to bite you back when you do die in the form of extra time required to get the lost XP back.

Wait what?


You still opted to go for a slower build despite knowing the downsides, you werent forced.
Hows that not your choice?

It's not simply about choice, it's also about what's the best way to reach your goal.

Fun fact, I leveled my main 99 Static/Lightning Strike dual wielding RT Jugg from level ~94 to 96 by doing ONLY the daily missions (was before the most recent EXP gain nerf hit). It wasn't fast, and it was satisfying to just see some more progress every day. My goal was to level as close as I could to 100 by doing only the master missions. With the nerf, that road got severely shorter as it was meaningless to even pursue it at 96.

That seems to happen a lot in PoE. These days the focus seems to be placed 99.99% on "uber fast pew-pew one shot for multi screens" meta. I could care less. But when outright from the start you get those skills to overcome in all ways other skills - like the namelocking melee ones, which should do those "obscene" amounts of damage - then we have a problem. TencentGGG should better delete the obsolete ones, or buff them to oblivion - the Elemental Hit buff is nice, it just needs a simple delimitation of "projectiles do xx% less damage" to provide a different experience between the "melee" and "projectile" tags - as that would grant those single target namelocking melee skills the purpose of being viable SINGLE TARGET KILLERS.

You don't have to feel like you made the "wrong" choice in PoE, especially as soon as you actually select your character.

So which choice are we talking about?

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

It's not simply about choice, it's also about what's the best way to reach your goal.

Spoiler

Fun fact, I leveled my main 99 Static/Lightning Strike dual wielding RT Jugg from level ~94 to 96 by doing ONLY the daily missions (was before the most recent EXP gain nerf hit). It wasn't fast, and it was satisfying to just see some more progress every day. My goal was to level as close as I could to 100 by doing only the master missions. With the nerf, that road got severely shorter as it was meaningless to even pursue it at 96.

That seems to happen a lot in PoE. These days the focus seems to be placed 99.99% on "uber fast pew-pew one shot for multi screens" meta. I could care less. But when outright from the start you get those skills to overcome in all ways other skills - like the namelocking melee ones, which should do those "obscene" amounts of damage - then we have a problem. TencentGGG should better delete the obsolete ones, or buff them to oblivion - the Elemental Hit buff is nice, it just needs a simple delimitation of "projectiles do xx% less damage" to provide a different experience between the "melee" and "projectile" tags - as that would grant those single target namelocking melee skills the purpose of being viable SINGLE TARGET KILLERS.

You don't have to feel like you made the "wrong" choice in PoE, especially as soon as you actually select your character.

So which choice are we talking about?

Its still your choice my man :)

Your goals, your tree layout, your gear, your skillgems - all your choices.
Its doesnt matter what you are picking, as long as you understand the pros and cons of your choices and accept them.


What you actually complaining about is the gap in power, speed, enjoyment, you name it, between certain build archetypes and I will most likely agree to a lot of stuff you´d mention.
But they did rework a lot of skillgems just recently and I do expect them to continue that. Probably not at the same pace but a few reworks here and there should be doable.

So there is hope for right now kind of obsolete build archetypes.
Frankly I would expect them to rework singletarget melee stuff at some point because they really do feel bad compared to other playstyles. Its not even about the damage output. There is a lot more to it.
Until your favorite playstyles are reworked in a fashion you like and yields somewhat comparable results to other playstyles, you´ll have to work whats in the game at any given point like everyone else.

So your choice is:
- Prioritize your goals -> pick a good build/playstyle capabale of achieving what you want and go for it
- Prioritize playstyle -> pick achievable goals according to your playstyles/builds current state in the game

But please dont pick toptier goals and a less than ideal build to achieve your goals and then complain about it.
You knew it and still did it.

I understand how you feel, just get more proficient in running maps and avoid really BAD map mods. I know alot of no-lifers (including me) pushing to level 90 only is easy once you grind the same red tier maps over and over.

The game becomes more brutal and soul sucking once you try to reach lvl 95 and over.

"

Orbaal wrote:

Spoiler

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

It's not simply about choice, it's also about what's the best way to reach your goal.

Spoiler

Fun fact, I leveled my main 99 Static/Lightning Strike dual wielding RT Jugg from level ~94 to 96 by doing ONLY the daily missions (was before the most recent EXP gain nerf hit). It wasn't fast, and it was satisfying to just see some more progress every day. My goal was to level as close as I could to 100 by doing only the master missions. With the nerf, that road got severely shorter as it was meaningless to even pursue it at 96.

That seems to happen a lot in PoE. These days the focus seems to be placed 99.99% on "uber fast pew-pew one shot for multi screens" meta. I could care less. But when outright from the start you get those skills to overcome in all ways other skills - like the namelocking melee ones, which should do those "obscene" amounts of damage - then we have a problem. TencentGGG should better delete the obsolete ones, or buff them to oblivion - the Elemental Hit buff is nice, it just needs a simple delimitation of "projectiles do xx% less damage" to provide a different experience between the "melee" and "projectile" tags - as that would grant those single target namelocking melee skills the purpose of being viable SINGLE TARGET KILLERS.

You don't have to feel like you made the "wrong" choice in PoE, especially as soon as you actually select your character.

So which choice are we talking about?

Its still your choice my man :)

Your goals, your tree layout, your gear, your skillgems - all your choices.
Its doesnt matter what you are picking, as long as you understand the pros and cons of your choices and accept them.


What you actually complaining about is the gap in power, speed, enjoyment, you name it, between certain build archetypes and I will most likely agree to a lot of stuff you´d mention.
But they did rework a lot of skillgems just recently and I do expect them to continue that. Probably not at the same pace but a few reworks here and there should be doable.

So there is hope for right now kind of obsolete build archetypes.
Frankly I would expect them to rework singletarget melee stuff at some point because they really do feel bad compared to other playstyles. Its not even about the damage output. There is a lot more to it.
Until your favorite playstyles are reworked in a fashion you like and yields somewhat comparable results to other playstyles, you´ll have to work whats in the game at any given point like everyone else.

So your choice is:
- Prioritize your goals -> pick a good build/playstyle capabale of achieving what you want and go for it
- Prioritize playstyle -> pick achievable goals according to your playstyles/builds current state in the game

But please dont pick toptier goals and a less than ideal build to achieve your goals and then complain about it.
You knew it and still did it.

Sure, I want TencentGGG to keep up the "good work" started with the rework of various skills and the Vaal ones for that matter, but PoE was about having CHOICE as the core driving force.

As soon as something succeeds in shadowing everything else you can't talk about "choice" and "freedom of choice" anymore.

I'm quite invested in PoE since 1.3.0, so a further "bone thrown" towards us "obsolete single target namelocking melee" users will just make my day better, but without a more definitive solution to the core problem - lack of identity for such skills - the entire "band aid" is "laughable" at best, not to even mention targeting or the survivability incentive that failed in such a spectacular way...

As someone that set "funny" goals and got impressed by reaching most of them, and got almost awed to the core by the sheer scaling of an unoptimised build, I simply want to succeed in reaching those no more, but certainly no less "timely" than those that "win" by simply picking the "path of least resistance". Nothing in PoE should "auto-default" them into "winners" and me into a "loser", if "choice" is a REAL option.

And those so called "top tier goals" are a minor afterthoughts for my build, which will someday reach the level cap, or get clothed fully into mirror level gear if I will keep playing long enough - as completing all content isn't such a problem even for my build, it just needs a way better "pilot" at times. I just want to have the said incentive to do so. I'm sorry to say, but PoE in it's current state reeks of too much missed potential, and as responsible community member, albeit a neighborly casual n00b hoarder, I feel it my duty to highlight all the lackluster aspects on the feedback and suggestions part of the official forum, with simply the hope they will reach TencentGGG and convince them to act before it will be too late. I might sound like an overly harsh critic at times, but I simply state the "obvious" most of the time...

So allow me to keep a very critic eye focused on their next steps, as they seem to be on the right track on several aspects, but still lacking a lot on many othera... You should do the same, as I know you're also caring about PoE, and so should do everyone that feels the same way too...