Multiple sources of "Monsters deal reduced damage"
Just looking for a confirmation of how they factor in with each other.
This is related to this post:
Spoiler
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Monster Rarity Damage Modifiers
This one is a little complex, but the TL;DR is that your mods like "monsters deal reduced damage" now actually work properly in a lot more cases. In addition, monster damage is now scaled up more correctly by things like map mods and monsters are slightly more dangerous now in situations where they were intended to be.
The full explanation:
In Path of Exile, there are many things related to the rarity of monsters (Magic, Rare, Unique) that increase the damage of those monsters. For example, a map mod might increase a boss's damage. In addition, the rarity of a monster itself adds an intentional bonus to its damage (which is why rare monsters do more damage than magic, and unique monsters do more damage than rare). Historically, these damage bonuses were always intended to be multiplicative (so that they actually had a decent effect), but were implemented as additive.
The most obvious way that this affects players is with the "monsters deal reduced damage" mods or skills. For example, If a monster skill has +200% damage (so it's dealing 300% of base), and you reduce monster damage by 10%, then it would reduce the monster's bonus to +190%, rather than the +170% that would be more correct (reducing 10% of 300% total damage).
The additive rules also diluted the impact and intentional difficulty that was meant to come from a boss having a damage aura stacking with its boss damage bonus. When stacked additively, it's harder to feel the additional damage.
In 3.2.0, these bonuses are multiplicative. We have done a full balance pass of reducing damage in various places to compensate for unintentional increases in danger that have come from this change. We want to stress that it is intentional that stacked damage mods actually work correctly, so there are some places where monsters are more dangerous.
Let's say I'm using:
Aspect of the Spider with fenemus' Shroud:
Enemies affected by your Web's deal 10% reduced damage
The occultists Malediction:
Enemies affected by malediction deal 10% reduced damage
Enfeeble (@lvl16)
Cursed enemies deal 28% less damage
- Will these apply multiplicatively since they each come from a different source or will they be added together during monster damage calculations?
- If they are added, will it happen using the usual "reduced" vs "less" rules of "reduced" being added then "less" applied multiplicatively?
I'm asking mainly because of the diminishing returns from multiplicative reductions, using the 300% base damage given in the above post and if I havn't screwed up my math:
All sources multiplicative: 175% (42% total reduction)
"Reduced" added then "less" applied multiplicatively: 172% (43% total reduction)
Thanks for the answer but I'm not sure that is applicable since 3.2 changed how "enemies deal reduced damage" works, it no longer simply takes from the enemies total additive damage increases but rather works as a multiplier. Hence the question ;)
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The most obvious way that this affects players is with the "monsters deal reduced damage" mods or skills. For example, If a monster skill has +200% damage (so it's dealing 300% of base), and you reduce monster damage by 10%, then it would reduce the monster's bonus to +190%, rather than the +170% that would be more correct (reducing 10% of 300% total damage).
I suppose another way of formulating my question is:
Do modifiers to "enemies deal reduced x% damage" work in a similar fashion to "enemies take x% increased damage". Since "take x% increased damge" is a multiplier that adds all sources together rather than multiplying them. For instance:
A level 20 despair:
Enemies take 25% increased damage from Damage over time effects
5 stacks of wither:
30% increased chaos damage taken
Hinder from Blight with 2 Spreading rot jewels:
50% increased chaos damage taken
Would act as a 105% "more" damage multiplier rather than 3 separate damage multipliers.
Thanks for the answer but I'm not sure that is applicable since 3.2 changed how "enemies deal reduced damage" works, it no longer simply takes from the enemies total additive damage increases but rather works as a multiplier. Hence the question ;)
It should work the same. I'm looking at these parts specifically, in the patch notes.
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Monster Rarity Damage Modifiers
This one is a little complex, but the TL;DR is that your mods like "monsters deal reduced damage" now actually work properlyin a lot more cases. In addition, monster damage is now scaled up more correctly by things like map mods and monsters are slightly more dangerous now in situations where they were intended to be.
The patch notes explains that the damage was never calculated properly. So, for however long this problem was, maybe all the way to beta. Damage was not being calculated properly and the mistake was small enough that the development team just overlooked it.
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Historically, these damage bonuses were always intended to be multiplicative (so that they actually had a decent effect), but were implemented as additive.
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For example, If a monster skill has +200% damage (so it's dealing 300% of base), and you reduce monster damage by 10%, then it would reduce the monster's bonus to +190%, rather than the +170% that would be more correct (reducing 10% of 300% total damage).
So, now it should be working as intended via wiki was what I understood.
Yes however what they are stating is that it no longer works as a "reduced" but rather a "less"...
As in the example given the enemy will deal 270% base damage, in the traditional wording for damage calculation that is effectively a 10% "less" not 10% "reduced" which would have been 290%.
You could say that it is now working as a 10% reduction to total damage, rather than 10% less increased damage.
This is an excellent change as 10% reduced damage on an enemy with 20% increased damage would be decent, less so on an enemy with 200% increased damage. Sooooo... Are mods to "enemies deal x% reduced damage" affected by deminishing returns due to not being added prior to being applied or are they applied one after an other.
Spoiler
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RPGlitch wrote:
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SicNNasty wrote:
A level 20 despair:
Enemies take 25% increased damage from Damage over time effects
5 stacks of wither:
30% increased chaos damage taken
Hinder from Blight with 2 Spreading rot jewels:
50% increased chaos damage taken
Would act as a 105% "more" damage multiplier rather than 3 separate damage multipliers.
It should act as a single 105% damage multiplier.
It does. Me nem nesa. What I don't know is if "enemies deal x% reduced damage" work in this fashion.
Last edited by SicNNasty#4559 on Mar 24, 2018, 7:02:17 AM
Yes however what they are stating is that it no longer works as a "reduced" but rather a "less"...
As in the example given the enemy will deal 270% base damage, in the traditional wording for damage calculation that is effectively a 10% "less" not 10% "reduced" which would have been 290%.
You could say that it is now working as a 10% reduction to total damage, rather than 10% less increased damage.
This is an excellent change as 10% reduced damage on an enemy with 20% increased damage would be decent, less so on an enemy with 200% increased damage. Sooooo... Are mods to "enemies deal x% reduced damage" affected by deminishing returns due to not being added prior to being applied or are they applied one after an other.
tbh, you could have worded this a little bit better. All the less than is than is now reduced is not reduced wording jumbalee is making my head spin trying to follow the train of thought. But yes, enemies deal x% reduced damage now work in the same fashion.
Any reduction or increase is now additive. And any more or less than modifier is multiplicative.
So, IE.
30% increased Global Physical Damage
15% increased Monster Damage
Unique Boss deals 15% increased Damage
Would all be additive. So, combined 60% increased Physical Damage from the Unique Boss.
Yes however what they are stating is that it no longer works as a "reduced" but rather a "less"...
What they are stating is that innate multipliers are now More-type; instead of monsters having Increased Damage, they have More Damage (or %base Damage, ala Attack Skills). Reduced is still Reduced.
Yes however what they are stating is that it no longer works as a "reduced" but rather a "less"...
As in the example given the enemy will deal 270% base damage, in the traditional wording for damage calculation that is effectively a 10% "less" not 10% "reduced" which would have been 290%.
You could say that it is now working as a 10% reduction to total damage, rather than 10% less increased damage.
This is an excellent change as 10% reduced damage on an enemy with 20% increased damage would be decent, less so on an enemy with 200% increased damage. Sooooo... Are mods to "enemies deal x% reduced damage" affected by deminishing returns due to not being added prior to being applied or are they applied one after an other.
tbh, you could have worded this a little bit better. All the less than is than is now reduced is not reduced wording jumbalee is making my head spin trying to follow the train of thought. But yes, enemies deal x% reduced damage now work in the same fashion.
Any reduction or increase is now additive. And any more or less than modifier is multiplicative.
So, IE.
30% increased Global Physical Damage
15% increased Monster Damage
Unique Boss deals 15% increased Damage
Would all be additive. So, combined 60% increased Physical Damage from the Unique Boss.
And vice-versa with reduction.
You are stating the opposite of what is stated in the patch notes.
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In 3.2.0, these bonuses are multiplicative.
Sorry I know you are only trying to be helpful but I'm not sure you understand my question and are simply working on the well known formula for damage caluculation in Path of Exile. My question pertains to a change specific to 3.2 that changes how a very specific mod affects enemies, this information isn't available on the Wiki and I was hoping someone had a definitive answer to how the damage would now be calculated based on this change.
