Skillgems limiting item customization

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gh0un wrote:

Which is a bullshit spec.
Such specs will never reach the effectiveness of pure build, which is exactly what i tried to say.
I have over 100k dps with my dual wield duelist.
I would never reach that amount if it wasnt for my highly specialized build.

Okay, but 100k dps isn't worth shit if you're overkilling or hitting only a few targets. I have a paltry 8k discharge that happens to clear the entire screen in one cast and I'm definitely not "specialized" by your definition.

You should think this over some more. Trading a 6% damage node for a +10 int node that allows you to use Vulnerability (25% more final damage) is a good option. Other such tradeoffs are not optimal when you're only looking at a big number in your character screen but greatly optimal in the bigger picture.

Example: those movespeed nodes that you're sure to have avoided will probably save you more time in the long run grinding chaos than virtually any other node on the tree. Food for thought.

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pneuma wrote:

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gh0un wrote:

Which is a bullshit spec.
Such specs will never reach the effectiveness of pure build, which is exactly what i tried to say.
I have over 100k dps with my dual wield duelist.
I would never reach that amount if it wasnt for my highly specialized build.

Okay, but 100k dps isn't worth shit if you're overkilling or hitting only a few targets.

How is it not worth it if i can clear rares in chaos with a single blow.
Flicker strike allows me to clear entire screens in a mere seconds, because i hit 5.5 times per second.

I dont see many other duelists being able to solo chaos.
I can even clear chaos if people join the party, making the enemies harder.
They still drop like flies, unless its a zombie rare with shield aura.

Trading 6% life nodes, crit nodes, or dmg nodes, for a measly 10 attributes of another color (or 30 stats after putting 5 more points into the skilltree to even reach them) just in order to use a different colored support gem 1 level further (which probably will be a 1% increase in strength) is not worth it.
Using low level skillgems of other colors isnt really an issue that would demand you to skill differently.

I didnt avoid those movespeed nodes at all if they gave reasonable boni for a small amount of points.
4% movespeed per frenzy charge is fairly strong and its only 1 point, obviously i took it, since it gives 32% movespeed for a single point.
Movespeed nodes that give 4% movespeed per skillpoint? Not so much, they are useless on my duelist that already has over 60% movespeed.
I took those 4% nodes on my rarity find witch though.

Skilling stuff that makes sense on certain builds is perfectly viable, my point is that going out of your way just in order to be able to use a supportgem of another color for 1 higher level isnt worth it if it means skilling a handful of points on attributes.

How come you think im not using gems of different colors?
Just because im proposing to shape their colors by the players´ decisions?
Wrong. My build wouldnt work at all if it wasnt for the fact that i use supportgems of all 3 colors.

Putting colors on gems beforehand makes it awkward for reasons i already stated.
Why should a tempest shield be blue exactly?
Why not red? Why not green? And if they were red or green, why not blue instead?
Its an arbitrary decision by the developers (im sure there are some arguments as to why it is blue, but you very well can make arguments as to why it should be another color because every class can make use of tempest shield).

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gh0un wrote:

Its an arbitrary decision by the developers

Sounds about right to me.

So you want gems to be easier to equip and level ?

It's already almost too boring because it's so easy to use whatever gem you want.

You already got an OP build that, unfortunately, can't use some gems, so you want to be able to use more gems to be even more OP ? That must be a joke...

You seem to think that your build is the best, even though you apparently haven't really tried to find anything else. That is quite pityful in my opinion. Wake up man...


You want to remove the bit of class identity PoE has ? Nice idea... Gems are like weapons, they have specific attribute requirements. Or perhaps you also want weapons to be customizable so that you can equip them even if you didn't make the right build ? Having limitations in builds is why it's interesting. The purpose you're trying to serve with your suggestions (customizing gems when they level) is already handled by support gems.


Arbitrary decisions are everywhere in games. PoE is actually not forcing many things on us comparing to the average rpg where classes have specific abilities. Telling that a barbarian can't throw a fireball is completely arbitrary, everygame does that, PoE doesn't.

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zriL wrote:

So you want gems to be easier to equip and level ?

No thats not the point.
Read the second part of the original post to see what my point is.

I want the leveling up of gems to be more of a decision than just pressing on the level up button and thats it.
Thats just plain boring and doesnt serve anything.

Just like the passive skill tree is the same for every class (just the starting positions are different) and is only shaped by the players decisions, gems should be handled the same way.

They shall start as colorless gems, but are colored by the players decision.
Each time they level up, you can choose between different level up paths that correspond to one of the three main attributes.
Depending on how you skill the gem, it becomes a blue, red, or green gem.

It looks like that makes equipping of gems easier, but is that the case?
What if the way you leveled your gem isnt the optimal way of leveling that gem for your specific build?
What if someone else skilled along different paths, and as a result created a better gem for your skillbuild?
You could try to trade with that person, get his gem, only to find out that you dont meet the requirements, and actually need to adjust your build a little to use this superior gem.

It would make leveling up of gems a much more important and fun mechanic, and would also make trading of gems an important aspect of the game.
It adds another level of depth to character customization and character progression.

The current colors of gems have absolutely nothing in common with class identity.
My witch uses all 3 color gems, and my duelist also uses all 3 colors.
The precoloring of gems ultimatively is an arbitrary decision.

Just to clarify something, i can use all gems that i need, thats not really the point of the second part of my original post.
I also dont think that my build is the best, im optimizing every time i look into my skilltree, calculating which path grants more benefits to my character.
This is what we call character customization.

Pressing on a button that automatically levels up your gem is the opposite of character customiztation.
Its limitation of character customization.

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Arbitrary decisions are everywhere in games. PoE is actually not forcing many things on us comparing to the average rpg where classes have specific abilities. Telling that a barbarian can't throw a fireball is completely arbitrary, everygame does that, PoE doesn't.

Thats exactly the point!
Many things in poe are not arbitrarily decided, but left free to the player.
That concept is written all over poe.
All i want is to apply that concept to the gems aswell.

I do agree that gem leveling is worthless at the moment, I've already posted about it, but it's not for the same reason as you. By the way, I think having to click the button is useless now that mana consumption is well balanced. People should be told somewhere that it's possible to delevel a gem. And scouring orb might need a little buff for its drop rate.


What you suggest doesn't serve any true additional purpose and it's easy to see that it can't work. GGG already has a hard time to find a bonus mod for gem quality, then you want to add a bonus for each attribute, it's just not possible.
Moreover, as I've said earlier, the customization of gems is already done via support gems. Having multiple mechanics which have the same purpose is only confusing for players and usually encourage stacking the same bonuses.

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The current colors of gems have absolutely nothing in common with class identity

I disagree, you can't deny that it's easier for a witch to use blue gems. I would like attribute requirements to be a bit higher at high gem level precisely in order to strengthen this point.

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zriL wrote:

I do agree that gem leveling is worthless at the moment, I've already posted about it, but it's not for the same reason as you. By the way, I think having to click the button is useless now that mana consumption is well balanced. People should be told somewhere that it's possible to delevel a gem. And scouring orb might need a little buff for its drop rate.


What you suggest doesn't serve any true additional purpose and it's easy to see that it can't work. GGG already has a hard time to find a bonus mod for gem quality, then you want to add a bonus for each attribute, it's just not possible.
Moreover, as I've said earlier, the customization of gems is already done via support gems. Having multiple mechanics which have the same purpose is only confusing for players and usually encourage stacking the same bonuses.

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The current colors of gems have absolutely nothing in common with class identity

I disagree, you can't deny that it's easier for a witch to use blue gems.

And my counter example would be tempest shield.
You cant deny that tempest shield makes the most sense on a tank, but the gem is blue anyways.
The color doesnt tell us anything about class identity in this case.

Sometimes the color will align with the class that utilizes that attribute and skillgem, and sometimes it wont at all, its not really related.

Well like someone said ,its not really hard to pay attention to the stats requiements and keep gems according to them.

Anyway there are possible changes to the system:
1) Currency that lvl down gems

2) Warning when you are about to lvl up gem thanks to stats of gear (so above your natural stats) ,so its easier to spot when you shouldnt lvl it if you want to easier swap gear.

3)Give player possiblity to adjust the gem lvl ,and the leveling process would just unlock the maximum lvl u can use.

In example you got 10lvl gem ,you can set it to 8lvl anytimes ,and max 10lvl. When you got 15lvl just the max lvl u can pick change to 15 ,but u can still put it to 10 if u wish.


Though the biggest problem i see in the gem system, is the equipment ,but in other way that you describe.
The game force you to find item socket wise rather than enjoying you picking gear more due to their magic effects.
Lets be honest ,you need to have skills where you dont need to have the mods on items ,playing without skill is not a choice.
And that in my opnion take out alot of fun ,specialy in game where you got big variety of drops.



I got idea that would give a bit of fun ,while still keeping gems sockets in items.
The whole idea is based on adding new items ,somekind of plates that give nothing expect "socket" space.
The plates would have different shapes ,just like tetris blocks ,and different amount of sockets possible.
The inventory where you would put those plates would grow with your lvl (maybe even give possiblity to player to grow it in the shape he wants it to be) ,and you will need to put those tetris blocks in most optimal way for you ,in order to waste the least space you can.

Basicaly you would need still to hunt items for sockets ,but they wouldnt limit you in changing gear. Additionaly give a bit of fun to players to find shape of plates they desire.

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gh0un wrote:

Sometimes the color will align with the class that utilizes that attribute and skillgem, and sometimes it wont at all, its not really related.

That's simply not true. If a gem is red, it's meant for strength-based characters; blue for intelligence; green for dexterity. They're not arbitrary decisions at all, like you're saying. If they were arbitrary, we would be seeing intelligence-based melee skills, strength-based spells, and other truly random samples.

The fact that classes of other alignments can use off-class skills is just a way to allow customization, not hinder it. I.E. Multiple Projectiles is meant for dexterity-based characters. Witches make great use of it, but they have to sacrifice some passives into dexterity to gain that benefit. That's customization and decision making, which is important in a character-building RPG.

Each class isn't supposed to be able to use all skills as easily as other classes. I don't know why you would want this, as it's what separates and distinguishes the classes.

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gh0un wrote:

And my counter example would be tempest shield.
You cant deny that tempest shield makes the most sense on a tank, but the gem is blue anyways.
The color doesnt tell us anything about class identity in this case.

Tempest Shield is intelligence-based because it's meant to be used as a shield bonus for intelligence-based characters. There are intelligence-based shields just like there are strength- and dexterity-based shields. The idea that the best possible application may be on a strength-based character doesn't mean the skill itself should be strength-based.

It's not a bad thing that characters have to sacrifice some passive points to get the best possible bonuses, especially when those bonuses aren't designed specifically for that class.

wow, I had to read this whole thing to understand all you guys want is just to avoid paying attention before leveling your gems...

The dev already gave you a formula to downgrade if you make a mistake.

Leveling in paths on each gem... well as much as I like more complexity I'd rather just see a rare gem or rare orb that allows you to have multiple abilities on one gem. Same color, same type, etc would be required to avoid it becoming a mess. But more crit plus higher crit damage being merged at later levels makes sense to me.

Beyond that just be careful. You have to plan your skill tree progression, armor mix, gem mix, etc is it really too much to also have to manage skill progression? No.

The skill tree gives Templars and Mauraders an easier ability to share the best of their defensive abilities. The other classes have to be more careful and focus on DPS to survive. The best defense is a great offense as they say. If the tree is pulled closer together to allow for a melee weilding witch who can rock a bow if she wants why even have classes at all at that point? It's just a FFA.