Mapping and Sextants, Questions from a Designer's Point of View
I wish we could use the sextants on the map device (like, enchanting the map device for the next 3 map uses) instead of on the atlas. It would remove both the blocking and the cluster fuck of red circles from our atlas, allowing us to take advantage of the sextant effects on any maps we currently have, and allowing GGG to more properly balance the maps density and the effects of sextants (for example, if white sextant was 5% inc. packsize and 20% iiq/iir for the next 3 maps, yellow sextant could be 15% inc. packsize and 60% iiq/iir and red sextant could be 45% inc. packsize and 180% iiq/iir, or something like that).
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Fantastic Post, i agree that sextants need to be changed, coz they are inconsistent with any other system. Also their name doesn't make sense, sextant helps you navigate, find correct course, they would make more sense if they affected the map pool you are getting, like increasing the chance of sextanted map to drop, this way you could still have a full atlas completition, and sextant the map you want to run, and get that map more frequently or even get only that map.
We failed once, We failed twice, We must fail again! WE'll b@ng ok? Last edited by fleshreaverpl on Feb 7, 2018, 7:16:04 AM
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one of the least transparent and toxic systems in the game. At least shaping strats are straightforward.
i mean minmaxing is ok, and there should be thing that need experience and resorses to use, but sextant locking is a bit over the top. i personally used it once (and shaped strand too, once), and didnt use it after, it ruins mapping diversity and is plain boring. No rest for the wicked
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very well written post, i agree with pretty much everything
you didnt mention directly that the only way to sustain T14+ maps is via sextanting the same map my suggestion to fix sextants for that issue : lower the map drop rate from mobs spawned by the sextants and augment the map drop rate by *original* map monsters map drops in abyss were pretty bad even at 147% of completion and chisel+alch+zana mods . changing the way the sextants work overall would be even better I hate the lab SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1609216 Last edited by Xanin on Feb 7, 2018, 9:23:36 AM
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Yeah it isn't a system I like. I will be honest, I am a idiot and noob. Looking at with the overlaping mods it looks confusing and off putting to get into and figure out what is going on. It is a real cluster fuk. I have never really used them much.
Only thing I can think of is changing it to a system that only does an effect to a single node. Wether that is an ever lasting effect or for only a short while, will have to be up to the developers, but I really don't like the overlapping effect. Especially because it gets confusing working out what your doing with it and where your going with the effect your applying. HaHaHa - YES! Last edited by Zalpha on Feb 7, 2018, 11:36:54 AM
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Imo sextants should work like leaguestones. You click them, and they give a random mod that applies for the next 3 maps you run. Don't like the mod? Replace it with another sextant. Maybe it goes away permanently when it is replaced, maybe it "seals" (like a prophecy) and you can use it later, I'm not sure what would be more balanced. This also balances the fact that currently some maps can have 8 sextants on them, while others can only have 2. If this does not prevent running the same map over and over again, make it so that the same sextant cannot apply to the same map twice. I feel like this would promote map diversity (yes, if the same sextant cannot apply to the same map you could just create a 3 map rotation, but that is at least a small step forward from farming the same map for 3 months).
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Great posting - agree to most of it.
The biggest problem - for me - is that efficient sextanting prevents you from running the maps that are effected be the blocking sextants - so depending on how many maps you block you can only run 15 - 80 % of the existing maps without significant economic impact. You also cant do the whole Elder - Shaper war because you want to have permanent E or S influence on the maps you run and cant push the influence around because you dont want to run the blocked maps. Of course you can still do it - but it is costly. Both problems can be removed by just remove sextant blocking - just accept two of the same sextant effects on a map - and remove the charge from one sextant only after running that map. The even bigger problem that I see and that is not mentioned yet is the absurdity of "group farming". If you dont know what I am talking about run an fully sextanted corrupted shaped vault with breaches and fragments in a group of 6 with a max Quant Culler. The investment in this setup pays back very big. It provides especially insane currency drop rates. If you have done it all single player "normal" farming feels pointless. The existence of this has impact on those who dont use it! The prices for sextants rise to a point where only this methods yields good profit from them and currency gets inflated so all those dont using it will have to pay more for the high end items. That reduces the possibility for experimenting with different build especially those that need expensive gear. A possible solution is to remove all Quantity bonusses for party play - you still get much more exp out of your maps - and to not apply the quant and rarity of the killer (culler) of a mob, but the average one based on the damage done to a map. If thats not easy, just make southbound not work in parties - "your hits can only kill frozen enemies while not in a party" | |
Wow Thank you all for the thoughts on sextants!
I'll try and post a response to everything that is a question or suggestion. Additional thanks to @Oxlolz for the inspiration to use Spoilers to make things more readable. "
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I think that that I would agree with that fact that sextant mechanics need to be reworked. Particularly Sextant blocking as it also "blocks" players from running other maps that might fall under any of the maps without the possibility of ruining all the work that was put in setting the blocking up.
When it comes to the mods of sextants, I think that the trimming of the mods that can be rolled could definitely feel better. However I don't think that its necessary to do so. In a experience filled with RNG and variance, I believe that its important to different challenges be set forth by a map augmentation system. I would suggest that there be additional variety of sextant mods, things like Area contains additional Monsters that are hyper aggressive(much larger agro range) or Area contains additional Towering Giants that are guarding coffers(Yellow monsters that are permanently influenced by a 4x Massive Shrine). Adding addition mods that feel rewarding could also accomplish similar rewarding experiences without removing the RNG that provides variety since you would have a smaller chance of rolling bad mods. I definitely think that having sextants only affect maps that directly connect to where they are placed, would reduce visual clutter as well as tone down sextant blocking. Another change I might suggest would be making sextants less static. Similarly to how Zana map mods or league stones can effect maps regardless of what map actually is placed into the map device to be run. Maybe sextants actually become a movable element that you can place on your atlas that allows positioning to still play a factor similarly to how parallel rulers and dividing calipers were used as active navigational elements on a map . "
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I would agree with you if a player just applies a single sextant at a time. However,
the wonderful intricacy of the sextant system allows you to have multiple sextants buffs apply to a single map due to the overlapping nature of the red circles of influences applied by each sextant. Due to the nature of rng, there will of course be some mods of sextants that don't actually have a profitable return such as "Players deal 100% increased Damage while stationary" as you mentioned. This would make sextants a lot less profitable if you weren't able to manipulate the RNG through the mechanic of sextant blocking. Take another look at this image again This is a fully sextanted setup for Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. You may notice that there are quite a few things going on here. I'll list them. First: There are about 34 to 36 sextanted maps on the left half of the atlas. Why is that you might ask, if this setup is to aimed to ONLY provide sextant bonuses to Shaped Channel and predominately Shaped Vault. This is because once you place a sextant on the map, whatever roll that sextant got can not be rolled by another sextant withing a similar area of the atlas. This allows us to do something called sextant blocking. Where we roll all the bad mods, some of which you mentioned onto the maps surround but not influencing Shaped Vault and Shaped Channel. This then means we are significantly more likely to roll a juicy mod we want on to the sextants that actually influence the map we want to run. In the end, by stacking addition monsters mods we can gain over 200-300+ additional monsters in a single map as well as some Increased Item Quantity. Which will easily guarantee we can pull in over easily conservatively 30-40+ on chaos a single map without utilizing any other mechanics like party magic find and Increased Quantity Culling Characters. The reason our haul can be so high is because since Shaped Vault is a Tier 14 map, it will drop additional Tier 14 maps. In our case it can ONLY drop Shaped Vault because that is the only Tier 14 map we have completed on the atlas. Meaning not only can we easily sustain the map pool but also sell additional maps that drop for 10-12c each. Second: Notice how wide of a range that the sextant influence covers. This means that to your early point of not thinking it disincentives running other maps, if we can't running any of the 48 maps that are under the influence of sextants without potentially ruining the expensive sextant blocking that we painstakingly set up. Third: Notice there are no completed Tier 14 maps on the image this is because if we running another other Tier 14 map other than Shaped Vault we ruin our loot table for map drops by allowing maps that aren't set up to be run through sextants appear. Meaning we have an nearly 50% opportunity loss if we complete a single additional Tier 14 map, much more than one. This means we are now once again limiting what maps we can run if we already spent the time and money investing in sextants. My last thought is that, you are right I should have had more detail on "The advantage of using sextants is so high, not using it is imperatively crippling." If it was simply losing an advantage then I would agree with you. However the fact that sextants exist as a mechanic in PoE means that they have to balance around it. Let me use the analogy you presented: "The advantage of wearing a helmet is so high, not wearing one is imperatively crippling". This would be fine if sextants have a purely additive influence on the game. However, that's not the case. Sextants provide a problematic balancing situation. Imagine this: "Because player find the benefits of wearing helmets so high, we as GGG have decided that in order to maintain the balance of the economy and power of players in Path of Exile, we have made it so that all players will now have an additional base -20% all elemental resists to balance the game. This will bring the effect of helmets back in an acceptable range. Have fun!" This is what actually has happened. GGG actually nerfed the base density of a considerable amount of maps to counter balance the power of sextants. This is why when you run a map like strand for example it seems almost abandoned as there are almost no monsters in the map. Here is a url where you can read more about the design decisions. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/6tdjla/wheres_the_official_source_for_map_nerfs_in_30/ " (1) The system visually and thematically stick out as inconsistent.
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" I totally agree with you in the fact that the Atlas is definitely a thing in the game. However I would suggest because the Atlas has no physical or visual entity that can represent it and rather it appears along side all the menu screens. In addition, the action of applying a sextant, I would argue is not actually modifying the Atlas but rather a player is modifying a map contained on the atlas. The fact that a sextant can directly modify a map on the atlas still feels inconsistent to me personally. The expectation that is presented by the design indicates to me as a player that it should behave like the passive tree screen due to both its coloration and difference in contrast to say the backpack portion of the inventory screen which you can clearly modify things that are contained within it. There is no other example that I have personally found in Path of exile that requires me to apply a currency directly to a menu screen. This is further reinforced by the fact one can not modify any gear that one is wearing with currency that change the potential mod structure of an item, such as a Vaal orb or a Jewelry orb or Chromatic Orb. I believe you can break the currency types of Path of Exile down into two of modifiers types: Crafting Currency and Payment Currency. The majority of currency is used as both such as Chaos(can be used for crafting directly and can be used to pay for modifiers such as Zana Map mods or Master Crafting mods). Silver coins and Perandius coins, fall under pure payment currency in my mind and thus follow a player's expectation of that paradigm. Orb of regrets while they don't fall under either paradigm at least tell the player how to use it. Right click on this item to use it. Shift click to unstack.
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" I would say I actually don't feel as obligated to run maps that I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. The reason for this for me is two fold. First, it does not inhibit me from actually doing another map that I would find. If I am not using sextants and I find an unidentified map, I will almost always run that map next even if I have more maps I have invested alchs+scours+chisels+vaals into. I can always come back to them if I want to have some variety. Second, the nature of sextants are that they are both static and modifier that is applied to the atlas rather an to map meaning that I can not just choose to ignore the sextant since it is a modifier that lasts for 3 maps. A quick suggest that would make me feel less obligated would be if I could toggle the sextants off if I wanted to run another map that might ruin my blocking. Now that's a mechanic that I personally would not like to see since it seems like a band aid applied to a system with broken bones sticking out everywhere. I would rather see sextants apply directly to maps or act like a payment system like the Zana Map mod "Fortune Favors the Brave" without specific map restricts so sextants can make more than just certain maps feel better. I also think that if sextants had a vendor recipe that could help, but I would prefer that the actually inhibitory effects that sextants have on the variety of maps that I can economically choose to run be fixed instead. Since it is in direct conflict with the idea of the Atlas, the continued introduction of additional maps, and the developer's complains that people are running that same maps over and over again as seen in my original post.
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" I agree with you that you can't discard a idea simply because it doesn't have visual clarity or good explanations however as a UX designer. I believe that systems are interwoven and these are additional factor that one must consider when it comes to the design or redesign of experiences. I think its also should be clear that I don't think the sextant system is architecturally compatible with the rest of the game. In addition with the quality of the content and the polish of Path of Exile, it is important that the systems are harmonious, since together all the systems make the building that is Path of Exile. I will continue answering questions and responding with thoughts when I get more time, Cheers, Airrows Last edited by Airrows on Feb 7, 2018, 11:15:50 PM
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Omfg the length of the post.
Sextants for medium players are worth shit, like in any other league over past 2 years. It is more profitable to sell them, save time, nerves and get some choas. Period. Anyone looking for info on how to use them, just read my post and carry on mapping without all the hassle how they work or whatever they are, fuck suxtants. |
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