Damage Over Time Changes - More Information Part 2

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Nicksiren wrote:

You did an excellent job of of saying nothing useful. People learn in different ways and part of playing complex RPGs like PoE involve learning the game's mechanics. What happens when you don't understand something in school? You ask questions. What you just wrote wasn't just elitism, it was a waste of time.

As it turns out Mark, a developer of PoE understands this and posted a useful graphic just regarding requests to help explain things better. Key word is help.

Thanks for those graphics Mark, they do a good job of explaining DoT conversions with the new system now.


I feel like you're taking butt hurt and using it as an excuse to dismiss the truth of my post.

I have no problem with Mark explaining as much as he wants to but there's a point where hand holding becomes a waste of developer time and explaining things becomes redundant and pointless because the people being "reassured" are in many cases just trying to object to any change through the use of purposeful obtuseness the same way kids scream "no I don't wanna, I'll never eat cake again I hate cake!!!!" when they wanted cookies but didn't get their way, ofc they will want the cake, they just have to calm down enough to realize it still better then no dessert at all.

In short some people are obstinately insisting this new thing is confusing because: "I don't wanna!" when in fact it's far less complicated and will now work like every other damage scaling system that doesn't scale the flat by 10% fire then scale that scaled number by another 10% using the exact same 10% 1 point passive investment twice.


Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO
Where is the line drawn between "base damage" and "multiplied damage"?

What contributes to base damage? What is the extent to which your damage can be modified and still be considered base damage?

- Flat damage provided by Attacks:Weapon / Spells:Spell gem (or explosive arrow or DD or elemental hit)
- Flat damage added by Rings, amulet, gloves, quiver etc., support gems eg. added lightning, cold, chaos, auras eg. envy, wrath, anger...
-Your damage is then multiplied by "increased" modifiers from passive tree, gear (rustic sash etc.), strength bonus to melee, fortify etc.
-Your damage is afterwards modified by "more" multipliers from support gems, pain attunement, point blank.
- Damage crits, multiplied by crit multiplier
- Your damage is then multiplied by "increased damage taken" on monsters eg. Augury of Penitence, vulnerability, frostbite, flammability, conductivity, proj weakness...
- Damage subtraction by monster mitigation eg. resistances, phys reduction.
- Final damage is calculated.

If I understand it correctly, having to scale DoT may mean that you have to sacrifice "increased" hit damage modifiers in the tree, which results in less leech from having less hit damage. As everyone knows, leech with vaal pact is the current meta for instant full ES/life. This may pose a problem to melee DoT builds that are already having problems with leech, like my Terminus flickerer. I'm not sure how the nerf will affect the build, but I am really curious to know.
Last edited by Esillia on May 14, 2017, 3:29:37 AM
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golan4840 wrote:
Not a word about Righteous fire? If I understand this correctly, Righteous fire is going to get a massive damage buff without any consequences.


They have said they will adjust RF's base damage with consideration for the fact that it now has a new more% multiplier gem support (and also probably a lot more increased% passives available if you can fit them into your build while you're collecting all those regen points and/or non-curse aura effectiveness nodes.

In essence crafted gloves or helm:
30% more Ele/DOT Pseudo 5th link
RF
Increased burning
Inc AOE
Conc Effect


RF currently is in a good place and needs neither a buff nor a nerf IMO. With this in mind perhaps just make the New shiny DOT support read: "when your damage causes an ailment".

RF as we know does not ignite, Scorching ray is also in a relatively good place, so this new more multiplier also wont unbalance it, because it also doesn't cause an ignite.

Now the only potential issue would be that the passive tree is going to have more damage over time and burning specific nodes on it. So:

10% increased damage over time when you ignite"

RF doesn't benefit.

Now just don't add any more generic all applying "increased damage over time" nodes than are already on the tree.

Boom balanced without touching RF
Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO
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Esillia wrote:

If I understand it correctly, having to scale DoT may mean that you have to sacrifice "increased" hit damage modifiers in the tree, which results in less leech from having less hit damage. As everyone knows, leech with vaal pact is the current meta for instant full ES/life. This may pose a problem to melee DoT builds that are already having problems with leech, like my Terminus flickerer. I'm not sure how the nerf will affect the build, but I am really curious to know.


In other words there will now be trade offs and hard choices to make wheras before there was no trade off and no choice, double dip or have "shitty damage" (aka damage that allows the games AI to be seen before instantly evaporating everything including Shaper).

Melee leech problems are a very real but entirely other problem to be addressed with (perhaps) making melee DPS not 4 times worse than every other form of damage in the game.* you can take 12 passive leech nodes and still have FAR WORSE LEECH than just getting Vaal pact with 1 point, and that's pretty terrible. *the former statement means Melee that's actually melee, and accounts for the travel cost to get to both the 12 leech passives (minimum 6 for a total of 18 points) and the Vaal pact keystone (minimum of 7 if on the red side or 8 total points), any responses that point out that Vaal pact is "far away" (it's actually not compared to the cost of getting all 12 melee leech nodes which then give you about 30% of the value of vaal pact) will be scroffed at, given the classic air jerking off motion and moved on from without comment. XD
Quadrupling the number of 0.00001% chance Boss encounters in the game while at the same time quadrupling the number of things you need to juggle (masters, leagues, splinters) is not a net increase in CONTENT; its a NET INCREASE IN CONTENT YOU NEVER GET TO DO
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alhazred70 wrote:
I feel like you're taking butt hurt and using it as an excuse to dismiss the truth of my post.

I have no problem with Mark explaining as much as he wants to but there's a point where hand holding becomes a waste of developer time and explaining things becomes redundant and pointless because the people being "reassured" are in many cases just trying to object to any change through the use of purposeful obtuseness the same way kids scream "no I don't wanna, I'll never eat cake again I hate cake!!!!" when they wanted cookies but didn't get their way, ofc they will want the cake, they just have to calm down enough to realize it still better then no dessert at all.

In short some people are obstinately insisting this new thing is confusing because: "I don't wanna!" when in fact it's far less complicated and will now work like every other damage scaling system that doesn't scale the flat by 10% fire then scale that scaled number by another 10% using the exact same 10% 1 point passive investment twice.


I think you're confusing you're skewed version of "truth" with cynicism.

Here's the truth: people are reacting in two different ways to these changes; one group is complaining because people complain about change; one group is trying to learn the changes in order to adapt. What you are doing is confusing these two groups.

In a previous post you quoted me and another player who made a comment about not understanding certain aspects of these changes and you subsequently went on to bash these and similar comments.

Here's where it gets interesting though - reading the rest of this post (and other posts of yours in this thread) it seems you truly don't understand the fact people learn things differently. Just because you may understand something doesn't mean everyone else does. Shocking, I know, the world does not revolve around you.

If other people want to ask questions to help them understand, let them. I have no problem with you going at the complainers who just want to complain, but don't mix these people up with those who actually want to learn something. Perhaps you can take your vehemently angry posts down a notch or two, relax, then join the fun of discussing these changes with those wish to learn and adapt.
Last edited by Nicksiren on May 14, 2017, 11:41:42 AM
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The pre-existing modifiers that claimed to increase "Damage with Attacks" will now correctly say they increase "Attack Damage". The newly-introduced modifiers that have already been discussed will say they increase "Damage with Attack Skills", and will apply to all damage dealt by an attack, even if it isn't attack damage.


What it means for Growing Agony Threshold jewel? How will it work in 3.0? Since "Attack damage" won't affect poisons anymre, it's going to be strong nerf to it. Is it going to be changed to "Damage with Attack Skills"?
these changes are good..as long as GGG will put the right effort in skill effects descriptions; everything looks very confusing so far
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SGOR wrote:
these changes are good..as long as GGG will put the right effort in skill effects descriptions; everything looks very confusing so far


I am more skeptical to this!
When i played BV and used poison gem, i didn't invest in poison damage specifically, because some passive nodes for BV also increased Poison, also passive for skill duration also worked for Poison. So in total Poison gem was equivalent to any other GEM with MORE amplification.

But now i can't see how CLOSE COMBAT skills will be viable for Poison!?
If you want poison you will have to invest in IT, but without primary damage for leeching HP back how long you will last against Bosses in close combat?!

From my point of view Poison only be viable more like CAUSTIC ARROW, With totems, summoner (animate weapon) OR earthquake build (Skill + Leap Slam to run away)!
I don't know if GGG will see/reply to this but i wish to ask them a question about the new DoT system.

I play a dead-eye ranger, i have the 25% bleed passive from the ascended class which also gives other bonuses such as extra crit chance vs bleeding enemies, I also recently obtained a pair of gloves named hemophilia, this adds a % damage boost against bleeding and also adds bleeding chance on hit (i assume these stack cumulatively meaning 50% total? sure seems like it)

After all these changes, while not intentionally "double-dipping" i feel like my character will be weaker, my question is this, will the bleed changes change the % damage boost vs bleeding from hemophilia or the crit chance vs bleeding from dead-eye ascendancy?

Second question is simpler, will there be a passive tree reset with this update? seems like some builds will be broken completely and will require a reset?

Kind Regards.
Last edited by buc01 on May 15, 2017, 7:00:24 AM
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buc01 wrote:
Second question is simpler, will there be a passive tree reset with this update? seems like some builds will be broken completely and will require a reset?

I can't answer the first question, but Chris made optional respecs standard for League releases a while back :)

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