Tackling the limitations of PoE: Part Two - Difficulty

After a few thousand hours playing PoE, I feel that the game that I love could be further improved.

This is the second thread in a series that will expand on some other "touchy" subjects.

If you missed my first entry, you could read it here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1896099

The topic of my discussion will be "Difficulty", and why does it feel like a rolling coaster ride playing PoE.

I stated in another comment that PoE lacks difficulty, and that is mostly true, as the game reached a point where you pour your heart and soul into it, and feel at times that your punished even if you didn't do anything wrong.

I understand that you can't have success without failure, but I feel that the way that PoE places failure upon players feels unjust at times and it has to be dealt with.

Progression

PoE has a level cap of 100, that should be reached by becoming invested in the game. That is perfect on it's own.

PoE has a further "soft" level cap regarding EXP progression at around 90-92. That starts to be a problem.

PoE has a fractured progression regarding the advancement of your character, so your journey from 1 to 100 doesn't feel "smooth" so it should be improved.

At the moment, due to the repetition of the story acts 1-4 and setting each run as a difficulty (Normal, Cruel, Merciless), most players feel that the journey of their own character will "start" when reaching maps at around level 60-70. Since then, they have between 20-30 levels to experience the rest of additional content and once they reach 90, a point of diminishing returns regarding EXP gain appears.

That could be improved.

What I would like to see from PoE would be keeping the "soft" cap at the mandatory level 90, but also an encouragement towards their player base to experience the end game content.

In case that not everyone knows, the current issue is that due to severe EXP penalty gain post 90-92, the most efficient way to level to 100 is by "daisy" chaining "high" end tier 11 Shaped Strands, and that could be done in less than 24 hours of continuous playing.

The problem is that it trivialises the danger/reward ratio of end game content (there are up to tier 16 maps, not to mention exceptional special encounters like Shaper, Uber Atziri etc.), that is lucrative only from a "financial" aspect at the moment.

So what I propose is to remove the additional EXP penalty that is in effect, but to actually link the level progression post 90 to the tiers high and end game maps. GGG could ask from their playerbase to meet the item, build and skillplay checks for passing post level 90 upwards to 100. They would be further prepared for that by tackling the "Labyrinth" as a content meant to hone their skills.

So having levels 90-91 gain optimum experience from tier 11 maps onward, tier 92-93 from tier 12 and above, 94-95 from tier 13 and up, 96-97 from tier 14 up and 98-99 to request at least tier 15 maps.

To have a further efficiency, a small adjustment to drop rates of maps should suffice, if not, the Atlas map bonus system could always be modified in a "% chance to not drop a map below the current tier played".

In this way, the playerbase that wants to level to 100 will be asked to do so by fighting the most difficult fights that the game has to offer.

And that will progressively increase the difficulty that the players experience.

As a "bone" thrown towards the casuals that might not be inclined to do so, they could instil an EXP penalty that grants 1% or less of the EXP that lower tier maps provide so they'll have to grind exponentially more.

So that the "hard way" is the "right way", and the easy option remains at least 10 times more consuming.

Level 100 shouldn't be reached without true dedication. As a further bonus, this should make players that don't enjoy trying to reach for 100 reroll further characters - or even just to do so to fuel more efficiently their ride to 100 with their main.

Parties and carries

We should have further improvements regarding the carry mechanic, as we already have EXP allocation that impedes "power leveling", some further improvements would be welcomed, as all party members should at least be required to be in the same visibility radius, not only area, to commence the difficult fights (as in final boss fights to pass through Acts).

Being carried might mean that you won't engage, take cover and "cowardly" run for your life expecting your team mates to finish the job for you, but you should be more actively encouraged to work together when your playing in a party with others.

Death EXP penalty

A form of death penalty, in the actual form of up to 10% of EXP from the level requirement feels more harsh than it should towards the last few levels, due to not having the opportunity to fight closer to your level foes.

Not to mention that we also have the "zerging" problem, that allows players to throw themselves for an indefinite number of times against the difficult enemies during the storyline.

What I would propose is a gradual progression for the number of deaths that culminates with the loss of one level. The death EXP penalty should start from a fixed 5% amount for the first 5 deaths, 10% for the next 5, 25% for the last and and a delevel that blocks out the last allocated skillpoint with a further 10% EXP loss.

Make the system reset on level up for example, so you should always have a limited number of chances to get to next level just like now - while doing so you encourage staying alive, as the current 10% always lost are too unforgiving for certain instances and all the change will encompass a "reshake" of EXP death penalty.

For maps the "zerging" phenomenon has a natural counter in the limited amount of tries.

Balance

All of the above do feel more difficult than they should due to "one shot" potential and implementation of certain mechanics.

Volatile Blood

A rework of this mechanic and maybe a counterpart that affects ranged and/or casters would be necessary for a severe reduction in unjust deaths due to encountering and killing Volatile Blood Devourers, Plummeting Ursas or any other kind of "instantly" appearing danger next to your character.

Vaal Detonate Dead

Certain instances of Vaal Detonate Dead are unpredictable and dangerous, with high death rate. Due to it's nature I think that the only way to make it a bit more forgivable would be to further adjust it's damage output.

Damage spikes

Right now, the interaction of map mods, and the monster mods of magic/rare monsters does create out of hand situations which I feel that could be addressed by increasing the minimum amount of damage that monsters do (up to a point where even normal packs should pack more of a "punch") while toning down their maximum damage output.

I once felt necessary to state that no auto-attack should drop you to bellow 25% of your EHP presuming you had reached certain minimum thresholds.

And "untankable" damage should be in all instances just that, no matter your EHP pool, if you're meant to avoid it, you should always avoid it.

Reflect

I feel that reflect damage mechanics could be further improved by adapting the Racecourse timed reflect on monsters, even at higher than average values, but with 2 modifications - the effect that marks the monster should be very visible, and the offscreen damage potential should be severely reduced, especially for projectiles.

Those modifications should also further improve the tactical and strategical awareness of the players, and add more weight to their choice regarding prioritising certain enemies.

That way "one shots" would never happen except for "glass canon" builds.

Further "custom leagues" could improve these aspects further by allowing players to tailor the game even more to suit their needs...

in terms of balance you forgot one thing

Instant Leech

as long as this is in the game, there is no point changing other stuff. sorry, every cute and innovative mechanic can be just bruteforced with buffer+leech+damage. all these layers of defence, ar% and block% etc are irrelevant - just stack buffer, damage and instant leech.

'clown fiesta'

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sidtherat wrote:

in terms of balance you forgot one thing

Instant Leech

as long as this is in the game, there is no point changing other stuff. sorry, every cute and innovative mechanic can be just bruteforced with buffer+leech+damage. all these layers of defence, ar% and block% etc are irrelevant - just stack buffer, damage and instant leech.

'clown fiesta'

Heh, I thought long and hard, but I will further address the "Balance" problem in it's own separate topic so now I will try to make 5 such threads.

These are the balance issues that do affect progression in the most direct way, and instant leech, as great as it is doesn't keep you alive if the dangerous hits are large enough and many enough, due to each buffer having only a limited size (although some EHP situations are higher than others, true balance would try to have them at least seem the same).

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鬼殺し wrote:

Oh fuck, what have I done.

I can't say much but at least some of this stuff is on the table in one form or another. They're widely recognised as problematic both internally and externally.

As for difficulty progression, I want to believe, deeply, that the ten act curve will be a lot easier to smooth out than the current 4 act 3 times curve, which is more like a series of plateaus separated by very steep inclines.

As I've said before and elsewhere, GGG's half-adoption of D2's death penalty system is really baffling. They copied/improved so many things from other games, but failed to appropriately implement a death penalty system that not only punishes mistakes but allows for a measure of reward for post-death effort: corpse runs in D2 not only retrieved your gear, they gave back 75% of the lost experience.

Carrot, stick. Stick, carrot.

PoE's death penalty is all stick and it's stupid.

I talk/write rarely, mostly when I have something worthy to be said, those that read my comments know to expect arguments and counter-arguments that hold their weight regarding the topics of the discussion.

These were brewing for a while, and thanks to your encouragement I will lay them out so all could see that even the regular players that don't excel at this game have great points. Even the casuals have something to say that might keep their interest.

The problem with the PoE death's penalty is that it's always the same stick. The stick should account for the increasing gravity of the screw up, and due to the other arbitrary placed impediments, that could have been replaced by a few more elegant solutions we're at a point where the last part of progression started to feel more like "work".

The leveling from 1 to 100 should always feel as "fun" from start to finish. That would make PoE the best ARPG in this regard...

well..

in d2 gear did not matter THAT much. so it was possible to zerg the boss

in POE, with current damage situation entering a map with -60 ele resist? lol. just no.

XP penalty - as infuriating as it is at times - should stay. this is currently THE ONLY way to tell bad players that they are bad. that there are things other than damage that they should care about

sadly, rest of the game promotes damage and damage only so the disonance is strong and end result is pretty meh

short list of GGG created videos showcasing some build concepts (but not clown-fiesta instant leech idiocy please) so new players can get BASELINE knowledge of this game would help a lot. i repeat 'GGG CREATED VIDEOS' not some streamers that in most cases know very little about the mechanics and just bruteforce the game with time (recent MoM situation.. just lol)

let the GGG explain why Evasion is good, let them explain why AR is good etc. on a believeable example (not in dried lake).

that should make some people at least try to build for defences

...unless GGG cannot show that because they have balanced the game into buffer+leech territory and other stuff doesnt cut the mustard anymore

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instant leech, as great as it is doesn't keep you alive if the dangerous hits are large enough and many enough

judging by endgame videos people tried the magic number is 7k buffer (no mitigation nonsense) + instant leech. it tanks minotaur smashes and shaper balls/beams. is one is hit by his teleport - it is on the players, but all the non-terminal attacks can be sponged with 7k buffer

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sidtherat wrote:

judging by endgame videos people tried the magic number is 7k buffer (no mitigation nonsense) + instant leech. it tanks minotaur smashes and shaper balls/beams. is one is hit by his teleport - it is on the players, but all the non-terminal attacks can be sponged with 7k buffer

And this makes me want to further expand on the balance issues in a subsequent thread. The "Balance" one will follow.

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sidtherat wrote:

in terms of balance you forgot one thing

Instant Leech

as long as this is in the game, there is no point changing other stuff. sorry, every cute and innovative mechanic can be just bruteforced with buffer+leech+damage. all these layers of defence, ar% and block% etc are irrelevant - just stack buffer, damage and instant leech.

'clown fiesta'

Perhaps the fix should involve changing/addressing/fixing/removing/reducing Instant Leech then?

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鬼殺し wrote:

corpse runs in D2 not only retrieved your gear, they gave back 75% of the lost experience.

But I'm sure that you are aware that in PoE, that would be completely meaningless, as you get to anywhere in couple of seconds because people are able to tp anywhere, maps are not big, etc ...

So unless very very few cases where it's super dangerous, you can just get back to your death's place in 10 sec, so what's the point ??



Globally agree with the OP, only I don't feel like changing the death penalty is needed.

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鬼殺し wrote:

Uhm, areas in PoE, especially maps, are MUCH larger than anything in D2. It's movement speed that's out of control, but as Marvel Heroes showed, you can't unfuck that puppy.

But when I say 'D2 had corpse runs', I'm not fucking suggesting poE get corpse runs. Just how obtuse do you think I am? That hurts.

I was only taking the example of going back to the rip location to get part of the xp back (Haven't play D2, only D1, but it works very in other games. For example, I started playing DaoC classic again and I am loving how everything is not lightning-speed fast, how it will feels consistent, and you end up paying attention to the environment. In such a game, going back to the rip location makes a lot of sense and is intuitive ), because that's an intuitive mechanic.

But how you would you do otherwise, I mean I have seen other suggestions on this forum, and for example :
- killing the thing that killed you to get the xp back ? What about when ripping to a volatile ? it would also
- Putting things that you guard your graves or whatever and that you would have to defeat ? That would nicely screw up people wanting to just kill the boss in its arena for the completion bonus

I'm not saying that there is no way, just that I honestly don't see at all how you would implement and intuitive, consistent and meaningful way to retrieve some of that xp.
If GGG can find something great, then fine by all means if that can improve the game.
But it's not an easy problem imho, far from it.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

corpse runs in D2 not only retrieved your gear, they gave back 75% of the lost experience.

But I'm sure that you are aware that in PoE, that would be completely meaningless, as you get to anywhere in couple of seconds because people are able to tp anywhere, maps are not big, etc ...

So unless very very few cases where it's super dangerous, you can just get back to your death's place in 10 sec, so what's the point ??



Globally agree with the OP, only I don't feel like changing the death penalty is needed.

Uhm, areas in PoE, especially maps, are MUCH larger than anything in D2. It's movement speed that's out of control, but as Marvel Heroes showed, you can't unfuck that puppy.

But when I say 'D2 had corpse runs', I'm not fucking suggesting poE get corpse runs. Just how obtuse do you think I am? That hurts.

I mean simply that if GGG could innovate new, creative ways of copying D2's concepts, they could have done the same for the carrot-stick relationship between dying and 'getting some of it back somehow'. Chris says he dislikes negative experiences in PoE, 100% negative experiences...and yet not in all this time has he or anyone at GGG tried to tweak the purely negative experience of dying at high level. It's shit and the only people disagreeing are those who play the meta so hard they either don't die OR they're so down with ridiculous clearspeed they can get the experience back in a timely fashion.

Many players cannot and do not. Losing hours' worth of experience to a single death (be it a player mistake, lag spike, ping fart, whatever) with precisely zero way to get any of that back is fucking bad game design and unworthy of PoE. You're not going to budge me on this issue so don't try.

It seems a simple and obvious fact that the death penalty hurts player retention. GGG has to recognize this because they reduced the death penalty.

This is worthy of a repeating. "bad game design and unworthy of PoE"

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bad game design and unworthy of PoE

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鬼殺し wrote:

I'm afraid I'm in sidtherat's camp here. Until GGG tone down the clear speed meta, it is pointless to discuss kill-based ways of getting back lost experience after a death. The disparity between meta players and non- is just too great.

I won't disagree there.