Remove xp loss on death, replace with xp bonuses for surviving

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Tempada wrote:

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vio wrote:

no penalty would make leveling bots much easier.

Huh, I hadn't considered that. Is it a big problem? I don't know much about the topic.

I agree that the death penalty is annoying and frustrating. Why have it? In my opinion, vio, hit the nail on the head. It has to do with the economy. PoE has a real economy that is an important part of the game for many people. This is a much more difficult feat than you might imagine. Think of Diablo 3. They gave up on the economy and just deleted the whole thing. If there was no death penalty then bots could easily level themselves up to 100 and then rake in nice drops at higher levels. This would crash the economy.

My guess is that bots also are part of the reason that a supply of high level maps are difficult to maintain.

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Crackmonster wrote:

Do not make the mistake of arguing with Fruz. Just look at what started this, he made a huge ad hominem post against you. He's purely trolling and not listening just sticking to his original opinion and using lowly attacks constantly. He doesn't "get" it either.

[...]

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Crackmonster wrote:

See you are just a little troll.

All you want is continue ad hominem.

Bye.

Of course, everything wants to go "ad hominem" with you, of course !
Can't you see the irony here ?

And please, before you use latin, try to understand it.
Btw, this is very antagonizing, I guess I should report it.

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Tempada wrote:

As someone else mentioned, Shaper is a mechanical fight. With a little practice or guidance and a lot of damage or support, it's not a big deal

Which wasn't the main point at all, let me quote myself then :

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Fruz wrote:

Beating shaper means that you have to climg the map tiers until the very top.
And that means that you need well-enough rolled maps, of up to the highest level.

One just does not get free access to shaper.

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Tempada wrote:

but there are a lot of bullshit deaths, ones that can be near impossible to predict because the screen gets so cluttered or because enemies are hiding or just spawning (a beyond monster exploding corpses IMMEDIATELY when it appears, volatile enemies for melee characters, especially ones that are popping up from underground or buffed by another enemy that is nearly hidden, connection issues... these are probably the biggest unexpected killers).

There are rare cases where this could happen, if one is not paying attention.
But I agree that the cluster fuck that it becomes does not go well with things like volatile ( I also agree this needs to be reworked ) and bearers, one need to slow down a bit to see those coming.

As for Bameth, I have yet to see him explode corpses instantly ( I am not saying that it is impossible though ). And in beyond map, it's a bit safer not to stand on pile of corpses because of him, also.
Breaches make this more difficult.


And the "hardcorness" of PoE isn't just the hardcore mod.
It's a global feeling, of a game supposedly unforgiving, where you just don't get to very high level by throwing yourself on content without thinking until it eventually pays off.

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morbo wrote:

The death penalty is a non-issue for casual players, because they DO NOT level past 90 (or even past 80). Anyone dedicated enough to try to level that far, should be expected to have balanced builds that dont rip all the time.

Agree

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Crackmonster wrote:

Current death penalty destroys build viability more than anything else.

It's the opposite actually.
Without death penalty, there will only be full dps zerging builds and that's it.

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Fruz wrote:

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Crackmonster wrote:

Current death penalty destroys build viability more than anything else.

It's the opposite actually.
Without death penalty, there will only be full dps zerging builds and that's it.

Actually, I'd argue that the death penalty is almost irrelevant to most builds (and most players as you mention). The death penalty doesn't really have a big impact until level 90 (maybe level 85 for some). I don't believe that people really like "zerging". Diablo 3 doesn't have a death penalty and people that I play with do not like to die even though there's no death penalty. If you read the Diablo build guides it is definitely false that they are full dps zerging builds. I believe that the assertion that there will only be full dps zerging builds is false.

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Turtledove wrote:

I agree that the death penalty is annoying and frustrating. Why have it?

because it gives meaning to the game, if a shit build with no defenses doesnt have a reason to become a better build then whats the point in the build system? Just to see how much dps u can stack and how fast you can go?

It supposed to be annoying because you are supposed to care about dying and try to avoid it.


Only reason people care about death in D3 is grift timers. When not in a grift people just die and res on the spot, not shits given, its pathetic.

theres damage and defense, the goal is to kill things and not get killed, thats the motivation to pay attention to those 2 sides of the coin. Map portals are not enough, I can put together a really badly defensed character with super dps and clear 9 out of 10 maps deathless, that 1 death has to matter enough that I dont play like that otherwise the game becomes a shallow joke and theres no reason to ever do anything but stack dps like that and just ignore defense almost entirely.

Leveling is no achievement in game - it only means you have no life, not that you have any skill as a player. It also mean you are good at copy-pasting builds.

Penalizing players for dying in game where you are supposed to die is non-logical. But people who are ok with it are usualy the ones that abuse game balance and mechanics (with in other games would be nerfed in 1 week and even result in possible perma/temp bans for intentional abuse).

Getting to 100 should actualy be goal for everybody since only then you can have "full build" with is somewhat a base for game that revolve around character building. They should introduce levels above 100 for the grinding no lifers. These levels should reward you with new skill points for new tree, with will give you only magic find bonuses, better drops overally, visual changes and so on. Basicaly no direct power, but still rewarding or distinguishing player from the crowd.

Dying penalties can be different.
First off, we see one in mapping where you loose one portal when you die.
Second one is in lab where you end your run early without end rewards.
We should have more penalties like that where you loose rewards, not something that you already earned.

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herflik wrote:

Penalizing players for dying in game where you are supposed to die is non-logical.

Its "non-logical" because you are NOT supposed to die. How did you even came to the conclusion that you are "supposed to die"? Read what snorkle wrote, the penalty is about balancing offense-defense. It prevents the game from being even more stupidly one-dimensional.

There simply has to be some sort of impactful penalty, for the gameplay to not be a boring linear progression, where you eventually get to the end no matter how crappy you build / play.

E:
Now, the penalty after 95 is too harsh, only because of the (last) XP gain nerf. Un-nerf that and it would become more reasonable.

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herflik wrote:

But people who are ok with it are usualy the ones that abuse game balance and mechanics (with in other games would be nerfed in 1 week and even result in possible perma/temp bans for intentional abuse).

Oh please, stop with the fallacious pathetic QQ that this is, it's a blatant baseless statement.

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herflik wrote:

Getting to 100 should actualy be goal for everybody since only then you can have "full build" with is somewhat a base for game that revolve around character building. They should introduce levels above 100 for the grinding no lifers.

No, you should fix your expectations to the games, don't expect the game to adust itself to your expectations.

Having the real long grind over lvl 90~95 or level 100 would change absolutely nothing.

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Ceri wrote:

In a business where player retention is the key to success, punishing players just doesn't make sense. This is not a debate about casual vs hardcore. It's an obsolete sentiment from the good old days, disagree however much you want but it's pretty much fact.

I think Diablo 3 did it well, with their enhanced XP bubbles that reward you for staying alive. It feels bad when you die, but it's not the end of the world. Just as it should be. Keep your players playing, keep their spirits up and encourage progress. PoE pretty much does everything the other way.

I've died a couple of times at level 95 and each time I just stop playing, sometimes for extended periods of time. It's so demoralizing it's not even funny, particularly when I die due to reasons outside of my control (network, server crash and such). Last time I whirled (Cyclone) into a volatile rare in a Gorge map and died instantly. That was fun, I learned a lot. The time before that I disconnected upon entering the Phantasmagoria boss room and the fat girl killed me while I was restarting the client. Gee, thanks. Those two bullshit deaths cost me like 50-60 maps worth of XP.

It might also be prudent to investigate if temp leagues should have a harsher penalty because that's where the actual racing is done. I see no reason to keep the penalty in Standard, though. That just pisses off the players, for no reason. I do see a point in keeping it where ladder races are a thing, though. I could see a reverse slider on the ladder position. The higher up you are, the more XP you lose if you die. If you're below a certain threshold (5000?) you have no penalty. Makes sense to me.

And if you really enjoy thrill and punishment, of course you play Hardcore. There should be no debate about that.

I could not agree more. 90% of my recent deaths are because of lags and some other random shit like opening Strongbox/Breach/Shaper's kamehameha etc ---->>> game freezes ---->> Dead. And it's been like that almost always. That's why the highest lvl I always go is 94. After that, it's basically waste of time to try to exp to next lvl. You play for couple of hours just to finish the day with less exp then you had before, because for example game decided to freeze in the middle of fight with a pack of Perandus monsters or some other situation where there's a big density of monsters. Also I play on SSD with pretty fast internet connection so don't tell me to check my specs ;) So yeah, in my opinion penalty should be either less then 10% or completely reworked or the amount of exp you earn on t11-t15 should be significantly better. SSF players have to spent waaay to much time to get 100lvl. So much in fact that I doubt it's even worth it.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

It supposed to be annoying because you are supposed to care about dying and try to avoid it.

Yes, I agree with what you're saying. Most of my characters (at least the ones I attempt to level past 90) are built like hardcore characters and I almost never die due to player error. When I do, I'm fine with it, usually. After all, it is my fault. :)

The problem is that nearly all of my deaths are complete bullshit, and usually oneshots. Bameth and his Vaal DD has killed me many times, and I still don't understand how on Earth one is supposed to protect oneself from that, bar Vaal Immortal Call. Granted, it depends a lot on what type of character I'm playing - he's easier to avoid with ranged chars, very hard to impossible on melee chars. Last time I got him I was on a Cyclone char in a Breach and didn't even see him before it was too late. Instant nuke wiping 2 full screens of mobs, thanks. It's about as challenging and interesting as a Volatile that goes splat. Both are terrible mechanics and should definitely be reworked.

For the existing death penalty (and for that matter, Hardcore modes) to be viable this game really needs to tone down the oneshots that aren't clearly telegraphed. The really hard hitters that have good telegraphing (Vaal, Atziri, Dominus and such) are perfectly fine. Vaal DD needs a nerf and better visibility for sure. Volatiles and reflect mechanics need to be reworked (or even removed).

Far more interesting, as a contrast, is Bameth's cooler brother - Haast. He can be extremely dangerous under the right conditions, yet he is also completely possible to outmaneuver with skill. I applaud his design, he's really fun I think. He can also oneshot you easily, but nothing he does is really unfair and you can actually play around him. Excellent little boss, probably my favourite random encounter in PoE.

But yeah, since none of that is probably happening anytime soon, I'm against the current penalty system. It's demoralizing, it's not challenging but frustrating, and it adds nothing positive to the game. Just makes me far more likely to play less. It already has.

GGG (and many players) seem to confuse hardcore with tediousness & frustration. There's nothing either challenging or difficult about leveling to 100, it's just tedious. And it can be terribly frustrating if you're unlucky with bullshit deaths. Which is why I stop in the low 90s for most characters, I can't be bothered even though I'm perfectly capable. Is that a good feeling?

^
That I agree with.

Maybe I haven't met Bameth enough, idk.
Everytie I see him, I instantly move away from corpses, and I have yet to have a case where he instantly blow everything up, but I can believe that it's possible.

I got him like 4 time in a double beyond shaped Arachnid tomb the other day ... with maybe 25~30 pack size, there were corpses everywhere ( at least one breach in it ).
I managed to survive though, not once he did instantly blow everything up, maybe I'm lucky. But if you are killing stuff from offscreen, you might not see him pop. A sound indicator when he appears would be most welcome, a slight delay before he Vaal DD should definitely be there also imho.