Concern with Detonate Dead (and Breach)

Could anyone from GGG tell me if Breach monsters will leave corpses behind?
I understand how it may not seem too important from a summoner perspective but I'm planning to do a Detonate Dead build and it's very important for that.

It may be an overlooked thing since few players use this skill.

I'm also a bit bothered by some corpses that currently can't be detonated like: Water Elementals, some Tora mission monsters, Fire Skeletons in the labyrinth and some Unique monsters/bosses.
I get that Water Elementals and variations of those enemies can't be detonated because they don't really leave corpses behind, but what about the rest?
Is it to prevent them from being raised as spectres? If so could we at least have them usable with Detonate Dead?


Btw, it would be great to see some sort of buff to Detonate Dead because it's one of the most unique skills in my opinion but it hasn't seen much daylight because of all the recent nerfs (DD nerf, prolif nerf, consuming dark nerf, Elementalist nerf).

Possible buffs:

To be honest, Detonate Dead shouldn't ever get a cast speed buff for the sake of DPS. Corpses are limited; its damage is the thing that should be focused on.

As it stands, I cannot get a Detonate Dead build to work to my standards because I always run out of corpses against certain enemies, even when doing things like Desecrate-Remote Mine-Minefield, or even more broken Desecrate-Spell Totem-Faster Casting (it ends up getting some five charges or more over the course of the totem's life span).

I cannot fathom how someone can even get a DD prolif build to function.

My main qualm is that Detonate Dead was the only gem in the game you didn't have to level. What I would like to see is it deals some 8% of a corpse's damage at all levels, but it gains increased damage per level. If this were the case, you would level it if you could sustain it's high mana cost, but could do a budget build using a level 1 gem while still having highly effective damage.

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Natharias wrote:

To be honest, Detonate Dead shouldn't ever get a cast speed buff for the sake of DPS. Corpses are limited; its damage is the thing that should be focused on.

Well, yeah I guess the damage should be increased also. But I feel it shouldn't be as limited by cast speed as a normal skill because it's also limited by corpses. The cast speed problem is essentially twice as big because you need to use another skill to begin with.

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As it stands, I cannot get a Detonate Dead build to work to my standards because I always run out of corpses against certain enemies, even when doing things like Desecrate-Remote Mine-Minefield, or even more broken Desecrate-Spell Totem-Faster Casting (it ends up getting some five charges or more over the course of the totem's life span).

I made a pretty good DD build this league but I barely use Desecrate at all because it's too slow. I use Flameblast to kill one single enemy and then use DD to kill the entire pack. I think that says something about the usage of Desecrate together with DD. I think it should be fixed somehow.

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I cannot fathom how someone can even get a DD prolif build to function.

Well, I got one build working but I feel the amount of damage scaling necessary to make the damage feel good is a bit much. I have a build guide in the shadow forum as well, if you're curious.

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My main qualm is that Detonate Dead was the only gem in the game you didn't have to level. What I would like to see is it deals some 8% of a corpse's damage at all levels, but it gains increased damage per level. If this were the case, you would level it if you could sustain it's high mana cost, but could do a budget build using a level 1 gem while still having highly effective damage.

You mean it starts at say 8% and increases this percentage as you level?
I would like the flat damage part to be higher as well as the percentage part. Especially for lower levels where the skill is completely useless otherwise.
Compare it to Fire Trap at level 4 requirement. Fire Trap deals 4-6 dmg and leaves 5.6 dmg per second burning ground while DD only does 4-5 dmg + the 6% (which is pretty much nothing at this stage of the game) AND it requires a corpse. The corpse, just like the flat damage part, is going to be less and less of an issue as you level up, but both of them are pretty big issues for early levels.

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As it stands, I cannot get a Detonate Dead build to work to my standards because I always run out of corpses against certain enemies, even when doing things like Desecrate-Remote Mine-Minefield, or even more broken Desecrate-Spell Totem-Faster Casting (it ends up getting some five charges or more over the course of the totem's life span).

If you want to avoid this problem try it as a trapper. Desecrate cluster traps, with ether Saboteur or Sunblast.. I was playing it last (or the one before?) season as a pure DD trapper with evasion/dodge/movement speed.. And when you add Vaal DD to the mix.. yeah

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Well, yeah I guess the damage should be increased also. But I feel it shouldn't be as limited by cast speed as a normal skill because it's also limited by corpses. The cast speed problem is essentially twice as big because you need to use another skill to begin with.

No, that's why you augment damage rather than cast speed. Cast speed would just help get it out. You're still limited by corpses. Cast speed just means you run out of corpses faster, dealing the same damage.

Cast speed isn't an issue.

If you augment damage, fewer corpses are required to do what you need to do, meaning you can do things in certain content you couldn't before.

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I made a pretty good DD build this league but I barely use Desecrate at all because it's too slow. I use Flameblast to kill one single enemy and then use DD to kill the entire pack. I think that says something about the usage of Desecrate together with DD. I think it should be fixed somehow.

That's not a pure DD build. I'm talking about a pure DD build.

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You mean it starts at say 8% and increases this percentage as you level?

8% base life as damage with x% increased damage that is based on level. For instance, at level 20 it would gain, say, 100% increased damage. If you have 100% increased fire damage from passives/gear, you would deal 8% * 3, or 24% of the corpse's life as damage.

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If you want to avoid this problem try it as a trapper. Desecrate cluster traps, with ether Saboteur or Sunblast.. I was playing it last (or the one before?) season as a pure DD trapper with evasion/dodge/movement speed.. And when you add Vaal DD to the mix.. yeah

Only trapper I will ever play is a Saboteur now. I said it before prior to the launch of ascendancies, and I cannot get into a trapper unless it is a Saboteur. I also cannot do it without Clever Construction, as too often enemies destroy traps/mines and that means lost DPS.

And as I said, I used remote mine. If I did that, I most likely would've used CT, which I did. The only time I really like it is on a quad-totem Hiero for lab runs.

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Natharias wrote:

Cast speed isn't an issue.

I mean, it's not THE issue, it's still an issue. Especially for Desecrate, it's sooo slow.
Also, with enough damage (which I guess is THE issue) you won't run out of corpses, you just need to generate one new corpse at the start of each pack.

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That's not a pure DD build. I'm talking about a pure DD build.

You can't make a "pure" DD build. You need corpses. Flameblast is just faster than Desecrate. With my build it takes 0.13 sec to one-shot a normal/white mob with Flameblast while placing a Desecrate takes 0.55 sec. In reflect maps though I only use Desecrate for corpses.

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OatmealOgre wrote:

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Natharias wrote:

Cast speed isn't an issue.

I mean, it's not THE issue, it's still an issue. Especially for Desecrate, it's sooo slow.
Also, with enough damage (which I guess is THE issue) you won't run out of corpses, you just need to generate one new corpse at the start of each pack.

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That's not a pure DD build. I'm talking about a pure DD build.

You can't make a "pure" DD build. You need corpses. Flameblast is just faster than Desecrate. With my build it takes 0.13 sec to one-shot a normal/white mob with Flameblast while placing a Desecrate takes 0.55 sec. In reflect maps though I only use Desecrate for corpses.

DD isn't about cast speed. Every other skill, barring traps, mines, and minions, do want faster cast speed. Lots of it.

Detonate Dead only does damage so long as you have a corpse to explode AND an enemy is close enough to a corpse that it will be damaged. If a corpse isn't near an enemy, be it due to proximity OR lack of corpses, you deal zero damage and have zero DPS. Faster cast speed does ZERO.

Cast Speed just means you run out of corpses faster and sooner. No more, no less. Again, cast speed does not help DD.

It's not that complex.

A pure DD build is just that. You only deal damage via DD. Desecrate being part of your build is just like a Minion build using auras. It enhances and enables your setup. A minion build making use of Ball Lightning doesn't make or break it, it just changes it to a non-pure minion build. You can either self-cast SRS or use Ball Lightning; a pure minion build would self-cast SRS (unless another circumstance forced a different self-cast, like BL to apply curses but this is different than BL in general).

Without Desecrate, a pure DD build would never work unless you made use of Righteous Fire to kill your initial enemies. While RF could work in a pure DD build, it would hamper your clear speed and passive/gear setup unnecessarily. It wouldn't even augment your DD damage.

Desecrate + trap support + cluster traps
Detonate Dead + trap support + cluster traps + further links
Trap chain detonation gained from Saboteur or unique.

These are the key components of an effective DD build. Traps throw fast. Every pack is a quick two buttons to kill. Reflect isn't a factor. Damage scales very effectively due to mob health component (keep your Desecrate leveled). Downside is no leech so an ES build is needed.

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Natharias wrote:

Cast Speed just means you run out of corpses faster and sooner. No more, no less. Again, cast speed does not help DD.

I'm sry but this is just false. Cast Speed does benefit DD. You can detonate corpses faster and move on faster.
Again, I realize that it's mostly for the Desecrate I want an increase in Cast Speed.

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Without Desecrate, a pure DD build would never work unless you made use of Righteous Fire to kill your initial enemies. While RF could work in a pure DD build, it would hamper your clear speed and passive/gear setup unnecessarily. It wouldn't even augment your DD damage.

I'm clearing every pack and killing every Unique enemy using DD. I only use Flameblast to kill one single enemy per pack so that there's another corpse. It simply serves as a utility skill. Or do you mean to say that no "pure" DD builds could exist until they released Desecrate?
How is even RF as you suggested any different? You use a skill to kill an enemy.
Was there even the point of saying that it's not a "pure" DD build? The build can run a map using Desecrate but I only do so when I have to because it's faster with Flameblast.

I want Desecrate to be faster so that you don't have to resort to using some Trap or Totem version which are slower than using Flameblast. The Trap version does make sense if you also use Traps for the DD as well but otherwise it's kinda slow having to wait for the trap to trigger, just like with the Totem that you'd have to wait for to cast.

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OatmealOgre wrote:

I'm sry but this is just false. Cast Speed does benefit DD. You can detonate corpses faster and move on faster.
Again, I realize that it's mostly for the Desecrate I want an increase in Cast Speed.

Enemies don't die. Do you just walk past them?

Oh, right, you don't. You run around like a dumbass trying to figure out how to kill them, because you got cast speed instead of damage. OOPS.

Again, cast speed doesn't help DD. Proliferation is more effective at augmenting a corpse's use than cast speed. Proliferation means more enemies are affected by a single corpse, while cast speed just means another corpse is used.

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OatmealOgre wrote:

I'm clearing every pack and killing every Unique enemy using DD. I only use Flameblast to kill one single enemy per pack so that there's another corpse. It simply serves as a utility skill. Or do you mean to say that no "pure" DD builds could exist until they released Desecrate?

Correct. It wouldn't be "pure".

This is like saying I use one melee skill against single targets and another for packs. It's not going to be, say, a "Molten Strike" build. It's not difficult to understand, but apparently you don't get it. Allow me to make it perfectly clear.

A pure trap build won't use just traps. You have auras, heralds, curses, and more. However, if you result to using Flameblast because you ran out of traps to use then you're no longer a pure trap build. A pure trap build will use just traps, either because it recharges quickly enough and/or what traps it uses are sufficient to deal with the content. The poison Bladefall miner that was one-shotting everything, for instance, won't result to Flameblast.

Again, not difficult to get.

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OatmealOgre wrote:

How is even RF as you suggested any different? You use a skill to kill an enemy.
Was there even the point of saying that it's not a "pure" DD build? The build can run a map using Desecrate but I only do so when I have to because it's faster with Flameblast.

...is just one reason RF could work in a pure DD build. It would be used for utility to augment Leap Slam/Whirling Blades, Lightning Warp, Flame Dash, fire damage, etc.

Flameblast is only usable to kill an enemy. RF is not.

But this has gotten far enough off topic. The problem with Detonate Dead is damage, even AOE, not speed.