It's time to remove reflect damage

Since having 75% resis and decent ES the reflects are no longer a challenge. Maybe in specific map conditions, but then I'd be careful or re-roll the map.

Anyway, I can say I don;t mind them being in the game at all. But as with puncture, I'd like very clear indications of reflect mobs, maybe even a graphical reflect (although it would put even more spell FX on screen, which I don't want). These things need to be clear and obvious. For now, I rely on seeing my ES going down for no reason and trying to target the rare with my cursor (which is many times not easy at all and not worth the time you can AoE the hell out of the suspect zone), then I need to read the damn list of mods on the rare. Uncool. I like reading, but not when I'm mobbed down. I'd rather have obvious visual clues, thank you.

So it's either stack armor and max endurance charges or die? Nice to see how much this game values choice and diversity.

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thepmrc wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Until someone shows me mobs that counter tank builds, anyone that claims that something is in the game to counter glass cannons is saying crap

What is it with everyone hating glass cannons over other builds. Why can't we hate pure tank builds, which is pretty much what 90% of the builds in the game currently are?

Honestly are glass cannons giving people like nightmares or something. If you want a game that has diversity, you don't just shit on one class (glass cannon) while leaving the polar opposite (pure tank) fine.

First off, there are no pure tank characters in PoE. You cannot 'tank' everything like in other games. Try, and you will die. Tankier builds do less damage, and therefore inherently level slower. The only drawback to doing less damage is that you know... you do less damage. The drawback to being a glass cannon is that you die and lose XP. The upside is that you destroy monsters in the blink of an eye. The balance is there. People just get upset about actually having to build balanced characters to do well I guess. They want to stack one stat and still be versatile... doesn't work like this, nor should it.

Im talking about builds

Most (successful) builds are tank builds. That is, they devote around 80-90% of their tree to defense (life nodes, elemental resists etc etc). That is the definition of a pure tank in this game, you are building as much health as possible

Conversely, a pure glass cannon builds as much offense as possible (again, lets say 80-90%).

The game punishes pure glass cannons builds much more than pure tank builds, and D2 diehards seem to be under the presumption that this is fine because glass cannons happen to be something that spawned from hell or god knows what

And don't give me this thing about less damage. The tanks in this game deal negligible amounts of less damage than the non tanks. Almost all of your damage comes from weapons (especially elemental damage)

Again there are so many things that punish pure glass cannon builds (flicker mobs, arc lightning, damage reflect) yet I havn't to date heard one thing that punishes pure tank builds (at worst, any punishment to pure tanks is an equivalent punishment to glass cannons)

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SEXYSUPERSATAN wrote:

It's pretty fucking stupid how whenever I watch any stream, streamers always have to do retarded shit in order to deal with reflect damage. Swapping out gems, replacing gems and once I even saw someone regret orb out of a talent because in a map the final boss was next to a reflect mob with ES.

I don't understand how that's "retarded". That's just smart. Thinking ahead and working out what things you can do to provide an advantage in tricky situations is what the game is really about. If anything, there should be more situations in which players were encouraged to swap their supports or even the skills they're using in order to provide that extra bit of leverage to overcome something.

There should be more situations where thinking ahead is the difference between being killed and not being killed. The double boss corpse explosion that killed Kripp and a few of his friends is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see more of -- unique situations which if you're thinking ahead can be avoided, but which are sharply unforgiving.

It's not like there aren't solutions to the problems that the game presents either: you described yourself the sorts of things that players do to solve these problems.

You can already spec really hard into optimising one skill and spam that throughout 98% of the game, what you're essentially arguing is that this should be 100%.

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deteego wrote:

The game punishes pure glass cannons builds much more than pure tank builds, and D2 diehards seem to be under the presumption that this is fine because glass cannons happen to be something that spawned from hell or god knows what

It depends on your definition of glass cannon. If a glass cannon is a build which has the minimum required survivability needed to stay alive, then glass cannons can be quite successful in PoE (at least in Default league, obviously survivability is always going to be the most important thing if you want to stay in Hardcore).

If a glass cannon is just something with no survivability at all, then you're going to die, but is that really a surprise? Do you really want the game to be so easy that you shouldn't have to try to produce a survivable character? Yes, you currently need a reasonably large amount of life to be really survivable, but that doesn't mean you need close to the absolute maximum amount of life which is possible. It's *possible* to have 12k life, you can be quite survivable with 4k.

The survivability doesn't all have to come from the passive tree either. You can generally get all your resists on gear in the long run, making Diamond Skin nodes a temporary convenience to make up for bad gear (or special gear which happens not to have resists on it).

Now, I agree there are some things about the options for the form in which that survivability has to come which are a little bit unhappy design-wise, but that's not really what you're arguing.

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deteego wrote:

What is it with everyone hating glass cannons over other builds. Why can't we hate pure tank builds, which is pretty much what 90% of the builds in the game currently are?

Honestly are glass cannons giving people like nightmares or something. If you want a game that has diversity, you don't just shit on one class (glass cannon) while leaving the polar opposite (pure tank) fine.

Just posting to assure you're not alone. In my entire life, all my RPGs, I have only played DPS mage-type characters whenever available, and I will continue to play them.

I think in PoE the root of the problem is that since there are no class specific spells, HP was thrown in as the go for stat in defence for all classes. In other games, DPS glass cannons are much more viable, because they have viable defence mechanisms, such as dodges, magic invulnerabilities/auras/armours, reflects, blinks, bubbles, and usually also a lot of CC abilities as well. Top that with some escape spells, and you have a viable glass cannon, that has no reason to rely on HP (which is good - DPS should focus on their specific defensive abilities... absent in PoE).

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MesostelZe wrote:

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deteego wrote:

The game punishes pure glass cannons builds much more than pure tank builds, and D2 diehards seem to be under the presumption that this is fine because glass cannons happen to be something that spawned from hell or god knows what

It depends on your definition of glass cannon. If a glass cannon is a build which has the minimum required survivability needed to stay alive, then glass cannons can be quite successful in PoE (at least in Default league, obviously survivability is always going to be the most important thing if you want to stay in Hardcore).

That definition is logically useless, because the minimum required survivability in this game is "don't die" due to the hefty XP loss

The definition of a glass cannon is a build (in this case skill tree) that focus almost purely on offense. Just as a pure tank is a build that focuses almost on pure defense

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MesostelZe wrote:

If a glass cannon is just something with no survivability at all, then you're going to die, but is that really a surprise? Do you really want the game to be so easy that you shouldn't have to try to produce a survivable character? Yes, you currently need a reasonably large amount of life to be really survivable, but that doesn't mean you need close to the absolute maximum amount of life which is possible. It's *possible* to have 12k life, you can be quite survivable with 4k.

Its not a question of surviving versus not surviving. Glass cannons are viable in other games because

1. You don't get one shot (tanks can like tank 10+ hits, glass cannons 2-3, of course depends on the game)
2. Glass cannons have access to mobility skills, temporary shields (emphasis on the temporary, they aren't meant to tank, the shield is there so they can survive a fatal blow every know and then), CC, etc etc. The only real mobility skill is WB, and that is restricted to classes that stack AS (since the movespeed is way too slow otherwise). Leap has similar problems, and you can also get hit mid air
3. Games don't have unavoidable damage, and if they do, the damage is really low (back to point #1)

PoE has none of the above, in any significant degree

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MesostelZe wrote:

The survivability doesn't all have to come from the passive tree either. You can generally get all your resists on gear in the long run, making Diamond Skin nodes a temporary convenience to make up for bad gear (or special gear which happens not to have resists on it).

Now, I agree there are some things about the options for the form in which that survivability has to come which are a little bit unhappy design-wise, but that's not really what you're arguing.

Gear has little relevance when it comes to glass cannon or pure tank in this game. All armor generallly increases your defense (chest/head) all weapons generally increase your offense (1h/2h), all belts generally increase your defense, and all other amulets/necklaces increase your attributes.

Its not like Dota where you can choose to buy 5 weapons (+ boots) and have no defense items, in PoE, whether you are glass cannon or not depends entirely on your passive skill tree, because that is the only area where you can differentiate yourself from being a tank/glass cannon or somewhere in between

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deteego wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

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deteego wrote:

Until someone shows me mobs that counter tank builds, anyone that claims that something is in the game to counter glass cannons is saying crap

What is it with everyone hating glass cannons over other builds. Why can't we hate pure tank builds, which is pretty much what 90% of the builds in the game currently are?

Honestly are glass cannons giving people like nightmares or something. If you want a game that has diversity, you don't just shit on one class (glass cannon) while leaving the polar opposite (pure tank) fine.

First off, there are no pure tank characters in PoE. You cannot 'tank' everything like in other games. Try, and you will die. Tankier builds do less damage, and therefore inherently level slower. The only drawback to doing less damage is that you know... you do less damage. The drawback to being a glass cannon is that you die and lose XP. The upside is that you destroy monsters in the blink of an eye. The balance is there. People just get upset about actually having to build balanced characters to do well I guess. They want to stack one stat and still be versatile... doesn't work like this, nor should it.

Im talking about builds

Most (successful) builds are tank builds. That is, they devote around 80-90% of their tree to defense (life nodes, elemental resists etc etc). That is the definition of a pure tank in this game, you are building as much health as possible

Conversely, a pure glass cannon builds as much offense as possible (again, lets say 80-90%).

The game punishes pure glass cannons builds much more than pure tank builds, and D2 diehards seem to be under the presumption that this is fine because glass cannons happen to be something that spawned from hell or god knows what

And don't give me this thing about less damage. The tanks in this game deal negligible amounts of less damage than the non tanks. Almost all of your damage comes from weapons (especially elemental damage)

Again there are so many things that punish pure glass cannon builds (flicker mobs, arc lightning, damage reflect) yet I havn't to date heard one thing that punishes pure tank builds (at worst, any punishment to pure tanks is an equivalent punishment to glass cannons)

You MUST be part of the 'gimmie' generation. Most normal gamers see an obstacle and think of ways to overcome it. You see an obstacle and then make a post on the forums and then tell the developers to change it because you find it too hard. An obstacle I found out about during Closed Beta was not having enough survivability in the endgame. On subsequent characters and in Open Beta, I addressed that by getting more survivability through the Passive Tree and through gear. The first thing I do on any character is cap resists for a difficulty. THEN you can start to add damage.

This IS NOT Diablo and the Developers are NOT here to make changes for you simply because you refuse to work around an obstacle. Go back to D3 is you just want to run around and smash things all day without a care in the world. I'm sorry, but I'm sick of people like you making whiney posts on the forums. Deal with it.

Glass Cannons were never meant to succeed in PoE. Every build needs to gear/build defensively because every build needs to survive. Everybody wants to take every damage node and be able to survive, but if this was possible the game would be in a much worse state than it is currently. While there may be slightly too much necessity in defensive nodes currently a build that ignores survivability should not be viable.

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SEXYSUPERSATAN wrote:

Apparently you guys have not learned anything from Diablo III. Nobody actually likes reflect damage. It is a very unpleasant mechanic and an extremely poor way to introduce new difficulty to the game. It would be the equivalent of adding levels where your screen turns black for 2 seconds every 4 seconds, so you'd have to wait or fight in the dark. It would increase the difficulty and introduce a new mechanic, but it would be a very poor one. What if there was a level that (after every X amount of monsters killed) would pop up a simple maths problem for you to solve while you took damage for every second you take to resolve it? Again, it would create a new mechanic, but it'd be a very poor and unenjoyable one. There is no need to nerf it or alter it, it has to be removed.

In this entire game you benefit from building as much damage and survivability as possible. There is nothing else where this does not apply, EXCEPT for reflect damage. It requires an unnecessary investment of time and effort to specifically make your character not instantly die to these mobs if you happen to crit them. Just like in Diablo III, where I had to run a life leech ability that I did not need anywhere else in the ENTIRE game just to deal with reflect mobs. It is basically the same as being forced to get a degree in neuroscience or anthropology simply because every now and then there's a mob that pops up a textbox with a question related to these subjects. It has fucking nothing to do with what the game is all about and the basic mechanics that apply to the entire game except for this 0.01% of it. It is cumbersome and unenjoyable.

My eyes hurt from trying to read this .