My Kitava's Thirst test - It behaves a little weird?

Well looking at some of the videos and comments here, along with some testing of my own, Kitava's thirst is to be ragarded as useless.

The 30% proc chance appearantly seems to have been chosen with these ridiculously fast attacking builds in mind, which then need to increase their mana costs with jewels. That translates to absurd losses of valuable stats for getting too little/nothing in return.

From a cast on cast persective, what's the point? Getting a skill to +100 mana costs more often than not requires a 6 link, and then the issue with the reduced cast speed and the poor proc rate kicks in. To illuminate:

-You get less than 1/3 of a 5 link for sacrificing important defenses and cast speed on your main skill. At which point is becomes obvious why this item sells for 1-2 chaos orbs, if not alcs.

But let's adress the elephant in the room, which would be discharge. Discharge can easily exceed 100 mana, even on a 5 link. Now, what if it was possible to use Kitava's to maintain Bladevortex stacks, by casting discharge, while wearing a Voll's protector? That would have been a nice little nod to those who had their CoC-DCs nerfed (by at least providing a somewhat functional alternative), and self-cast discharge (which I personally really like) would have had something worthwhile to play with.

If you thought that was going to work at least half decent, you are out of luck: Even with a 20q inc duration and potency of will, your Bladevortex won't stack much higher than 4-5 stacks, you can get higher by adding exceptional performance, but that's epensive in terms of points invested. So in return, you Bladevorte has nowhere near enough stacks to facilitate a worthwhile single target DPS. In order for a self-cast DC build to work with Kitava's, the proc rate would have to be above 40%, if not more, and the cast-speed malus would need to be removed entirely to make DC a bit more "spammable" on bosses, so you can get a bit of better a "wind up".

All things considered, when I first saw that item, I thought it was going to an enabler that comes at a cost, while still being somewhat rewarding. Now, at the end of the day, Kitava's thirst -as is- enables nothing that would be worth even theorycrafting a build for. What remains is a visual spam of mediocre spells by fast attacking builds, with barely any impact, if we ignore GPU processing.

If the intention for Kitava's thirst was to enable something half-decent: Please try again.

"

Sure_K4y wrote:

Well looking at some of the videos and comments here, along with some testing of my own, Kitava's thirst is to be ragarded as useless.

The 30% proc chance appearantly seems to have been chosen with these ridiculously fast attacking builds in mind, which then need to increase their mana costs with jewels. That translates to absurd losses of valuable stats for getting too little/nothing in return.

From a cast on cast persective, what's the point? Getting a skill to +100 mana costs more often than not requires a 6 link, and then the issue with the reduced cast speed and the poor proc rate kicks in. To illuminate:

-You get less than 1/3 of a 5 link for sacrificing important defenses and cast speed on your main skill. At which point is becomes obvious why this item sells for 1-2 chaos orbs, if not alcs.

But let's adress the elephant in the room, which would be discharge. Discharge can easily exceed 100 mana, even on a 5 link. Now, what if it was possible to use Kitava's to maintain Bladevortex stacks, by casting discharge, while wearing a Voll's protector? That would have been a nice little nod to those who had their CoC-DCs nerfed (by at least providing a somewhat functional alternative), and self-cast discharge (which I personally really like) would have had something worthwhile to play with.

If you thought that was going to work at least half decent, you are out of luck: Even with a 20q inc duration and potency of will, your Bladevortex won't stack much higher than 4-5 stacks, you can get higher by adding exceptional performance, but that's epensive in terms of points invested. So in return, you Bladevorte has nowhere near enough stacks to facilitate a worthwhile single target DPS. In order for a self-cast DC build to work with Kitava's, the proc rate would have to be above 40%, if not more, and the cast-speed malus would need to be removed entirely to make DC a bit more "spammable" on bosses, so you can get a bit of better a "wind up".

All things considered, when I first saw that item, I thought it was going to an enabler that comes at a cost, while still being somewhat rewarding. Now, at the end of the day, Kitava's thirst -as is- enables nothing that would be worth even theorycrafting a build for. What remains is a visual spam of mediocre spells by fast attacking builds, with barely any impact, if we ignore GPU processing.

If the intention for Kitava's thirst was to enable something half-decent: Please try again.

But have you done any actual testing of all those things you are supposing, or are they all just speculation?

In my case, all the comments and videos I've posted in this thread came from playing with Kitava's extensively since the very beginning of the league and testing it in depth with at least 3 different triggered spells and 3 different trigger skills, and in my opinion and experience it can work really well and help create unique and fun builds.

It was a bit frustrating, yes, to realize the way Kitava's actually works when I got everything setup at first, but then I dropped the things that didn't work and looked for things that do work.

"

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Sure_K4y wrote:

Well looking at some of the videos and comments here, along with some testing of my own, Kitava's thirst is to be ragarded as useless.

The 30% proc chance appearantly seems to have been chosen with these ridiculously fast attacking builds in mind, which then need to increase their mana costs with jewels. That translates to absurd losses of valuable stats for getting too little/nothing in return.

From a cast on cast persective, what's the point? Getting a skill to +100 mana costs more often than not requires a 6 link, and then the issue with the reduced cast speed and the poor proc rate kicks in. To illuminate:

-You get less than 1/3 of a 5 link for sacrificing important defenses and cast speed on your main skill. At which point is becomes obvious why this item sells for 1-2 chaos orbs, if not alcs.

But let's adress the elephant in the room, which would be discharge. Discharge can easily exceed 100 mana, even on a 5 link. Now, what if it was possible to use Kitava's to maintain Bladevortex stacks, by casting discharge, while wearing a Voll's protector? That would have been a nice little nod to those who had their CoC-DCs nerfed (by at least providing a somewhat functional alternative), and self-cast discharge (which I personally really like) would have had something worthwhile to play with.

If you thought that was going to work at least half decent, you are out of luck: Even with a 20q inc duration and potency of will, your Bladevortex won't stack much higher than 4-5 stacks, you can get higher by adding exceptional performance, but that's epensive in terms of points invested. So in return, you Bladevorte has nowhere near enough stacks to facilitate a worthwhile single target DPS. In order for a self-cast DC build to work with Kitava's, the proc rate would have to be above 40%, if not more, and the cast-speed malus would need to be removed entirely to make DC a bit more "spammable" on bosses, so you can get a bit of better a "wind up".

All things considered, when I first saw that item, I thought it was going to an enabler that comes at a cost, while still being somewhat rewarding. Now, at the end of the day, Kitava's thirst -as is- enables nothing that would be worth even theorycrafting a build for. What remains is a visual spam of mediocre spells by fast attacking builds, with barely any impact, if we ignore GPU processing.

If the intention for Kitava's thirst was to enable something half-decent: Please try again.

But have you done any actual testing of all those things you are supposing, or are they all just speculation?

In my case, all the comments and videos I've posted in this thread came from playing with Kitava's extensively since the very beginning of the league and testing it in depth with at least 3 different triggered spells and 3 different trigger skills, and in my opinion and experience it can work really well and help create unique and fun builds.

It was a bit frustrating, yes, to realize the way Kitava's actually works when I got everything setup at first, but then I dropped the things that didn't work and looked for things that do work.

Perhaps you should read the first paragraph of my comment once more. I am running a 6 link Voll's protector plus Kitava's thirst here, in essence league. And 30% proc is utterly low to provide a proper charge feed, via BV stacks.

With self-cast DC you don't spam all the time, you cast once or twice into a pack and then move on. I had streaks of 10 casts not proccing anything (and before you even ask, I was not using echo), which makes the cast-speed with Kitava's thirst a pain in the ass to deal with. Because that cast speed malus, along with the low proc chance, oh-so-conviniently makes it nigh impossible to stack up Bladvortexes on bosses, or at times even essences, beyond a count of 4 (which is where you finally get near a proper feed), if you can afford to stand still and spam all the time to begin with. As soon as you need to move out of harms way, you're screwed already, because then time is working even less in your favour than before.

As a matter of fact, I can just as well have a proper helmet, with decent stats, and just self-cast an echoed BV before engaging tougher opposition, and then echo-spam DCs with more success and much higher, reliable DPS than what I currently have with Kitava's. That little bit of work I am getting compensated for by better overall clearspeed, more consistancy, and less odds of dying, or getting screwed over by no-proc reels. Do I need to elaborate this any further than I have, or can we agree that Kitava's thirst isn't anywhere near what it could have been in regards to self-cast discharge?

As for your unique and fun builds: If spamming rather underwhelming spells in terms of damage, while effectively burning jewel sockets, is fun to you, OK, fine by me. If taking 5 minutes or more to run a beach map with your setup is fun for you, fine by me. You do you, and I don't judge, just so we're clear. All I will say is that proc-spamming skills, for the sake of having something to look at, is not my cup of tea.

If the only thing that Kitava's thirst enables is additional GPU-strain without having any noteable gamplay impact, that is NOT fine by me, because then the item does not provide anything that would be worth even considering to build around, as in: It is NOT working WELL, because it does not make up for its downsides (lack of res, life, ES and cast speed) by delivering any sort of desireable power. If an item takes more than it delivers, which at this point in time should be fairly obvious imho, it is not a good item. When you just look at the prices on the market for this helmet, it is pretty obvious that something isn't right about it. People throw these away for mere pennies, because they realize even without testing, that there is nothing to gain. And again, I am *actively* testing this, I am not doing math on paper here. What I am saying is based on first hand experience.

EDIT: From what I have learned so far, the cast-speed reduction needs to go away entirely, and the proc needs to be more like 40%ish, then it would be worthwhile: Even with an increased cooldown on the procs, to prevent server strain, it would still be fine in that case.

EDIT2: Actually there's more. In regards to self-cast dischargers this item needs to compete with scold's bridle. Scold's provides 100% proc on a discharge, because of how mana intensive discharge is coupled with 400% of mana spent is taken as dmg. So, with scold's I can get 100% proc, enjoy a little spelldmg boost as well, and since Vaal-pact is needed anyways, the downside can be covered up relatively well. Also, in comparison to Kitava's, Scold's actually allows me to use different gem setups, plus I can also use a 5 link, and proc every second cast. Then to top it all off, a BV on cwdt also gets additional stack when I'm getting hit. So after all that being said, Kitava's -as is- is actually a failure for self-cast discharges. One may argue it was intended for use with attack skills, but getting that mana cost up, being able to sustain attacking, and getting something out of that helmet is still highly unlikely, if not impossible. It makes a nice skin transfer though. If nothing else, that makes it at least a bit desireable.

I gave up on my Projectile Kitava KB. Didn't want to spend the full price of a respec, so I'm switching that character to Voltaxic spark.

I have another attempt that I'm planning right now that I am certain no one has thought of. (Probably for good reason). Excited to see if I can make it work, but it will take a while as I will be leveling gems to at least 19 + farming currency on my main(s) to jumpstart the build when it hits 70.

Currently using the item to trigger arc with... arc.

I'm only lvl 63 atm, but the power of the trickster Ascendancy and DW casting enables a fair amount of effectiveness so far.



Current Tree at 63

The mana cost of my trigger Arc is currently 108 with a 4L: Arc + Echo + Controlled Dest + Light Pen.

When I get a 5L I plan to drop Echo for Faster Casting and another support (as long as my math proves that echo is less DPS than FC accounting for triggers from the helm).

I really wish there was an Arc MTX so I could change the color of my trigger Arc so I'd know when Kitava's went off, but it works very well so far.

Plan for Atziri is to use Shock Nova and 3x Shock Nova in the helm to prevent chaining deaths in the split phase.

-Savage

I personally like the item. I am currently running a mana-tank hierophant using this helmet. Hierophant is kind of perfect for it because very high mana sustain and 20% damage penetration with your helmet.
The character's not perfect, but I have about 30k dps when all things are considered and about 5.5k effective hp.
I have been using (Flame Surge - Conc. Effect - Inc. AoE - Fire Pen. - Faster Casting) as a primary skill, it has 15k dps and 4.3 casts per second at 100 mana exactly atm.
I also use the Apep's Rage wand for the flat chaos damage, implicit spell damage, high cast speed, and 40% increased mana cost.
I have to use just about every way to get mana regen though. I am currently at about 450 mana regen per second using a Praxis ring, Rallying Cry, Clarity, and Immortal Flesh belt.

"

Telperion_sr wrote:

Hierophant is kind of perfect for it because very high mana sustain and 20% damage penetration with your helmet.
The character's not perfect, but I have about 30k dps when all things are considered and about 5.5k effective hp.
I have been using (Flame Surge - Conc. Effect - Inc. AoE - Fire Pen. - Faster Casting) as a primary skill, it has 15k dps and 4.3 casts per second at 100 mana exactly atm.
I also use the Apep's Rage wand for the flat chaos damage, implicit spell damage, high cast speed, and 40% increased mana cost.

I would like to see the math behind this. You're basically saying the gems in that helm effectively deliver the same dps as your main 5 link does, and that is something I find very hard to believe.

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Sure_K4y wrote:

I would like to see the math behind this. You're basically saying the gems in that helm effectively deliver the same dps as your main 5 link does, and that is something I find very hard to believe.

Flame Surge gives 50% more damage vs burning enemies, and has fire pen. I'm pretty sure the 30k dps is just from flame surge with those things considered.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

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Sure_K4y wrote:

I would like to see the math behind this. You're basically saying the gems in that helm effectively deliver the same dps as your main 5 link does, and that is something I find very hard to believe.

Flame Surge gives 50% more damage vs burning enemies, and has fire pen. I'm pretty sure the 30k dps is just from flame surge with those things considered.

Yeah that was the first thing that came to mind, but then I wondered why someone would willingly accept -15% cast speed just for ignites, when you can just as easily use firetrap and have a better main skill, along with a better helmet... So I was actually kind of hoping there would be something more to this, or it just might have been math gone wrong...

I feel like this could be good on an SRS summoner.

A 5 link SRS with echo-melee phys-minion damage-multistrike takes the mana cost to 55. You'd then use just 1 fevered mind unique jewel and it'll be over 100 mana each cast.

You'd put desecrate-flesh offering-spirit offering-bone offering in the helm and along with the duration nodes you typically take on an SRS skill tree. Theoretically the offering buffs would have permanent uptime.

I feel like this would be a really good application (if it works like it's suppose to) as it's not detrimental to your build if it doesn't proc as you're not built around it as some other builds may be. But having perm uptime on all 3 offerings should equal a huge buff to your minions and and yourself with the necromancer ascendancy class.