My p2w tabs are not getting me any win

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Perq wrote:

[...]
- But what if I'M COMPETING!?

Then be prepare to pay up. GGG is not a charity, and if you want to be competitive, expect to pay at least this minimum of minimums. Yes, this is pay2win in this territory, but if you expected to get EVERYTHING for free, be able to be competitive, stream (and thus make money out of it) and whatnot without ANY money involved, you are delusional. Keep in mind that this is PAY ONCE, BE COMPETITIVE FOREVER kind of thing. You're not paying for super-duper ammo, extra exp rate, extra drop rate or whatever.

So please, anyone arguing that these are terrible, false-advertisement, pay2win demons - stop being delusional. GGG is not your Angel from Heaven friend who is willing to work for your entertainment for free, and doesn't expect anything in return. ESPECIALLY if you are willing to make money off their game, which they allow.

so it's p2w but saying it's p2w is somehow wrong?

christ man. talk about fucked up logic

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dudeweed wrote:

"

Perq wrote:

[...]
- But what if I'M COMPETING!?

Then be prepare to pay up. GGG is not a charity, and if you want to be competitive, expect to pay at least this minimum of minimums. Yes, this is pay2win in this territory, but if you expected to get EVERYTHING for free, be able to be competitive, stream (and thus make money out of it) and whatnot without ANY money involved, you are delusional. Keep in mind that this is PAY ONCE, BE COMPETITIVE FOREVER kind of thing. You're not paying for super-duper ammo, extra exp rate, extra drop rate or whatever.

So please, anyone arguing that these are terrible, false-advertisement, pay2win demons - stop being delusional. GGG is not your Angel from Heaven friend who is willing to work for your entertainment for free, and doesn't expect anything in return. ESPECIALLY if you are willing to make money off their game, which they allow.

so it's p2w but saying it's p2w is somehow wrong?

christ man. talk about fucked up logic

You are completely missing his point.
The game is not p2w but if you choose to be competitive at the highest levels (and even then i would argue that real money doesnt get you any advantage over skill and knowledge)have a trade imperium hoard thousands of items in other words get the max out of this game then yes investing some money will help,but thats a far cry from p2w.

"

dudeweed wrote:

"

Perq wrote:

[...]
- But what if I'M COMPETING!?

Then be prepare to pay up. GGG is not a charity, and if you want to be competitive, expect to pay at least this minimum of minimums. Yes, this is pay2win in this territory, but if you expected to get EVERYTHING for free, be able to be competitive, stream (and thus make money out of it) and whatnot without ANY money involved, you are delusional. Keep in mind that this is PAY ONCE, BE COMPETITIVE FOREVER kind of thing. You're not paying for super-duper ammo, extra exp rate, extra drop rate or whatever.

So please, anyone arguing that these are terrible, false-advertisement, pay2win demons - stop being delusional. GGG is not your Angel from Heaven friend who is willing to work for your entertainment for free, and doesn't expect anything in return. ESPECIALLY if you are willing to make money off their game, which they allow.

so it's p2w but saying it's p2w is somehow wrong?

christ man. talk about fucked up logic

Sorry, I can't make it any more clear. If you don't understand what I said there, it seems you'll have to do with never knowing the reason.

Sorry again!

premium stash tabs are pay2win, period.

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Miazga wrote:

premium stash tabs are pay2win, period.

"

MekaDragon wrote:

Try throwing one of those p2w tabs to Uber Atziri's face.

There seems to be a misunderstanding in general or some people are genuinely naive.

First of all Pay To Win is not a literal term. Second p2w is what harsh critics of the freemium model call it. Taking the term p2w literally is just pathetic and naive.

You like it or not PoE follows the Freemium business model, in which the core game itself is indeed FREE TO PLAY (literal), meaning you can do everyting without paying a single dime, but there are things for sale that help ingame functionality too. Yes stash tabs and character slots (why nobody ever mentions character slots is beyond me) belong to that category. By nature they offer subtle advantage to those who bought them, that affects both their trading experience as well as their convenience and functunality standards. But most importantly TIME, saving time is the main advantage those feature have, thus why the naive and ignorant will think that there is a "pay for convinience" thing. Bussiness companies all over the world would love people like you, seriously get a grip of the situation.

So lets compare a game with no purchasable in-game advantage and PoE shall we?

DOTA 2 for those who are unaware has microtransactions too. Every single one of them is aesthetic. Very similar to PoE's aesthetic MTX.

All would be good if that was all that PoE offered though. But its not.

PoE offers extra inventory space and extra character slots for money, and while the advantage is subtle/small most of the times, ITS STILL A PURCHASABLE ADVANTAGE. Stash tabs are their most profitable MTX, why is that, i wonder?!?. South Park Freemium. Check the collect part of the equation, thats the part GGG monetizes with tabs, plus time saving with both character slots and stash tabs. And time=money.

PoE is Freemium Game, accept it or not, doesnt change the fact that you will pay for that subtle advantage no matter what you believe. If it makes you feel better claiming that you play a non Freemium game then do it, it wont change the fact that it is one.

To be completely honest props to GGG though cause they managed to persuade a bunch of people that their game offers no ingame advantage for money.

To make it more easy for the challenged to understand : stealing an apple and stealing a bank are both considered stealing. Dont try to play with the words or use softer ones like it would change the actual way things are or work.

Its just that the GGG's idea of Freemium game is as fair and non-invasive as it can get inside that business model, and many people (including myself) can accept and respect that. Those who cant even see it for what it is, good luck in real life, you will definately need it.

Regards.


For those interested in further reads and videos about the topic and how to properly use words.(since it seems its needed here in the forums)

Freemium: Is the Price Right for Your Company?
Freemium Economics to encourage better F2P games
Freemium
Euphemisms by George Carlin

A lot of us are probably fine agreeing that PoE is Freemium, but you still run into disagreements when the type of advantages you gain in PoE can be argued to be convenience advantage versus an advantage that directly correlates to winning, which has been pointed out that it is difficult to pinpoint a "win" that isn't arbitrarily set. For some people, competitiveness is "winning" and I am fine with that, others don't give a crap like me and there is no "winning" aside from short term goals like "I will get a lvl 100 character eventually, I'll kill Shaper eventually, etc."

So if you literally don't care about competition and just want to make your own fun, we are strictly in pay for convenience having more stash tabs and an easy to manage shop. There is nothing about this game that says you have to be competitive so "winning" by ladder/competition in general seems arbitrary to me (races and physical rewards are a different story, but I have established my reasoning why stash tabs do nothing to help you in either case) and others like me.


Would really appreciate if you actually debated with us next time instead of making a broad insults about our intelligence and critical thinking skills under a banner of "I've done my research and it all suggests my view is right and better than yours pleebs."

You use lots and lots of of tabs to setup a shop where you flip items.

Tabs are 'pay2win'. But only IF you have the knowledge and IF you have the patience and IF you bother to buy/make custom scripts to flip the market and IF you are online 24/7 and IF you don't get mad when half the people don't respond to your buy orders and IF you follow every patch note and IF you follow every hyped build and etc. Do all that and yes you will be infinitely rich and then the tabs become 'pay2win'.

I would if there was any reasoning to it. Freemium is not something new and debatable, there are no opinions or points of view. It is a known bussiness model.

PoE follows that model and is freemium game where you can buy ingame features that offer an advantage (no matter how small anyone perceives that advantage to be its still an advantage)

The whole debate from both sides comes down to how they feel about it, while that doesnt matter at all because the truth is there for anyone to see. Because the company has successfully tricked some believing that the game has no "p2w" features doesnt make it truth.

And by the way you try to analyze it it shows you dont understand the whole topic (not you personally but the people in the same category).


So lets say PoE is single player only. The game costs 30 USD to buy. The company then releases a 10USD downloadable content that adds 60stash tabs. Those stash tabs still offer you convinience AND time saving. The exact same traits you get from PoE as currently is except the trading one. Both are advantages. Its just that in the example PoE is pay to play, while the actual PoE is Freemium and freemium is what people call p2w.

And thats where people trying to use softer words and nonsensical arguments fail. There is no literal meaning in the p2w meme.

Lets see some exambles. PoE and another ARPG (without the labyrinth) called PeO.

1)PoE

PoE is completely free to play it. You can do ALL content, without paying a dime to GGG, you can get to level 100, you can kill all bosses, have all the uniques drop for you etc.

PoE has limited inventory space. And 24 character slots. The company sells extra stash tabs for extra space and character slots to make extra characters.


2)PeO
PeO is completely free to play it. You can do ALL content, without paying a dime to CCC, you can get to level 100, you can kill all bosses, have all the uniques drop for you etc.

PeO has unlimited inventory space and unlimited character slots. The company sells experience boosters.


Which one is p2w? Have in mind that both features that are purchasable affect everyone's game play and they both save time.


You guessed wrong, both games are freemium and offer an advantage to those who buy those features aka have pay to win features. In both examples you WIN TIME. Its just that in one instance its pretty fucking obvious while in the other its not and thats part of why the whole "debate" is so common and keeps reappearing and we have naive arguments like the ones presented on this thread as well. Its masterfully concealed and advertised as such and GGG made a name for this feature and their policy. Its why the averaage jow believes they pay for simle convinience. Its all part of marketing and bussiness policy to make consumers feel right for what they pay for. And as you can see it has results, not only people are paying to have the extra edge/advantage but they believe that they are not for that reason. Truly amazing right?

Getting tabs helps SSF players, getting tabs helps traders, getting tabs helps with leveling (having leveling gear and uniques), getting tabs helps having more builds, getting tabs saves you the hustle (aka saves you time) of having to load/reload characters to get something you put in them because you have them as mules. getting tabs helps you having less mules and more characters specialized in farming specific content.

Getting tabs helps no matter your playstyle, you want to call them convinience call them. The fact its they are part of a Freemium bussiness model that monetizes space management aka loot collection in the argp genre. There is no debate on that matter and thats why i dont treat as such.

Again, you concocted your argument to straight out insult anybody who doesn't agree with your exact line of thinking. I don't care to debate with you anymore.