Juggernaut really is terribly weak relative to others.. but here's an easy, reasonable fix

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dudiobugtron wrote:

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Starxsword wrote:

It kind of depends on what values we are talking about.

Yes, my point is that armour depends on what values you are talking about, whereas damage conversion doesn't. Glad we agree.

We agree and we disagree. You are talking about generalization while I am talking about specific. As I have said, physical damage only goes so high. There is no reason to use imaginary values like 100k physical damage when it doesn't exist.

The whole point is use values that exists for better comparison. I don't know if Lightning Coil is the best phys reduction gear since the introduction of Juggernaut class which allows you to double your base armor in the armor slot.
High end pure phys damage is about 5k, you need 100k armor to reach 66% damage reduction against high end phys damage.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

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Starxsword wrote:

It kind of depends on what values we are talking about.

Yes, my point is that armour depends on what values you are talking about, whereas damage conversion doesn't. Glad we agree.

The point of the argument is whats better, a 2k+ chest or a Lightning coil. I know how it works im saying that in the end it functions the same.

The armour we are talking about here is near cap. 80-90% physical mitigation through armour is going to be better than a lightning coil. As you can tell with Zenos video, you dont even need a GG chestpiece to get near the higher end of those percents, when he sockets in his 1500 armour chest he still has 87% instead of 90%. You could argue and even say that as long as you have like a 1000 armour chest piece which should still provide more than 80% it would be more effective than a lightning coil.

There are multiple instances where a lightning coil will fall off, as mentioned in my post. Its hard to get elemental weakness capped, which is why people avoid it. Lightning coil also suffers quite a bit in minus max maps.

Armour isnt going to fall off with mods like that.

The point im saying here in general is, OP is wrong. This guy is also wrong by saying lightning coil is cheaper and more effective, because it isnt.

You can farm up 6 celestial justicar or buy them for like 10c each, or alternatively if youre 2h you can but the warlord card and just buy a 1500 chest with life which is dirt cheap.

A 6S5L Lightning Coil will cost you 1.5ex, 6L LC is much, much more expensive, meanwhile a full set of justicar will cost you half of that. Chaos spamming chests is quite effective, you can easily get a good armour and life roll under 100 chaos. As long as you get a good armour and life roll, its automatically better than Lightning Coil at that point, because you dont have to invest heavily into overpriced lightning coil specific rare items.

TL;DR - For those who dont understand, defense breaks down in the end to Effective HP. In this case, You will have significantly more EHP than a lightning coil.

OP definitely hasn't tested juggernaut properly.

The nodes are definitely powerful, just like most ascendencies if used properly.

Unstoppable is god damn amazing, and anyone not using it I am surprised and shocked at how they could not. It does what it says, yojust don't stop. Temp chains on chilled ground? I still attack at maximum attack speed and run at full movement speed.

There are only two things which slow me down, and even then its only ms slow not aspd slow, and that's dart traps and tar zombies. Oh, and spike traps which stop all movement (but who gets hit by those these days). Going back to my other char which doesn't have this, and you get hit by the frost arrow statues, or really anything that has chilled ground, and it just feels so painful. I got rid of my 'remove freeze and chill' flask cause I realised I didn't need it at all.

Juggernaut is just ridiculously crazy.

As for the fortify, why not take +inc dmg and +life regen for free, you already have fortify if you are melee. And if you aren't, don't get this, get +1 endurance charge or something.

The double body armour + unable to be stunned is pretty decent. My body armour is far from the best, but combined with my pot I have a ridiculous amount of armour, and I am not even focusing on armour much.


I feel like this is the 'necromancer block is too good' and the 'assassin is the only good shadow class' feedback. It is trying to create an argument out of nothing, when its really not true.

op did you see zeno's video about juggernaut ?
zeno had like extra 25k armour just off a chest piece

juggernaut is in a good place, better than berserker, especially for hc play

Folks, I've tested the classes extensively especially the mentioned builds with my 98 Duel, 100 Mar, you can disagree all you want but there's a reason the stats (overall player choices) are clearly favoring Champion, Bers, Glad over Juggy.

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grepman wrote:

op did you see zeno's video about juggernaut ?
zeno had like extra 25k armour just off a chest piece

juggernaut is in a good place, better than berserker, especially for hc play

Give me a break, of course Juggy would/should be better than Berserker on HC.. come on. So it's better than 1 subclass only in HC mode cause generally defensive build is > pure offensive build, so that means Juggy is fine the way it is?

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Real_Wolf wrote:

OP definitely hasn't tested juggernaut properly.

The nodes are definitely powerful, just like most ascendencies if used properly.

Unstoppable is god damn amazing, and anyone not using it I am surprised and shocked at how they could not. It does what it says, yojust don't stop. Temp chains on chilled ground? I still attack at maximum attack speed and run at full movement speed.

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Of course the nodes seem 'powerful' like I said, if you look at all sub classes each seems powerful on their own.

But in comparison to other tanky, non-DPS focused subs, Juggy clearly lacks something. And IMO it can be solved easily and balanced by the freeze/slow immune being 100% immune, instead of that base speed nonsense.

And you are clearly wrong on 'full movement speed', you don't move at full speed when slowed/chilled with unstoppable.

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Dark_Chicken wrote:

But in comparison to other tanky, non-DPS focused subs, Juggy clearly lacks something. And IMO it can be solved easily and balanced by the freeze/slow immune being 100% immune, instead of that base speed nonsense.

Full immunity would do nothing extra. Afaik the only things that can change your base speed are:
- Freeze
- Chill
- Temporal Chains
- Acceleration Shrine.

So unless you plan to go around with Acceleration Shrine on all the time, Juggernaut can already be effectively immune to Freeze, Chill and Temp Chains. No need to make it completely immune, it just breaks some neat builds based around being cursed, frozen or chilled.

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And you are clearly wrong on 'full movement speed', you don't move at full speed when slowed/chilled with unstoppable.

When slowed by tarred ground or something, agreed. You will move at 100% movement speed, which is much slower than most people move. I agree that it should be that you can't be slowed at all, so even tarred ground or hinder/etc won't affect you.

Chill shouldn't slow you down at all though. Not sure where you are getting that from.

Guardian doesn't even make the list of defensive classes? :(

If you go {Bastion of Hope, Radiant Faith, Unwavering Faith}, for this discussion, you get:
- 7% block, immune to stuns after blocking (i.e. all the time)
- 42% increased armor
- flat armor = 1.6x reserved life
- 1% phys damage reduction per aura

If you run 6 auras (and can, easily) reserving 2800 life, you're given 4480 flat armor (two more chest pieces-ish) and 6% phys damage reduction (1.5 endurance charges).

Assuming you've got ~decent %aura effect and %armor investment and are running Determination, you can easily get over 15k armor before accounting for any of your actual gear.

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Anyway, Champion is the end-all-be-all for a defensive class and everything else is inferior to that if you're picking your ascendancy class before making other choices.

Juggernaut is nice if you were starting Marauder anyway since Chieftan/Berserker don't have great defensive options. Going {Unstoppable, Unbreakable, Unflinching} isn't a bad idea by any stretch.

all else aside (because Guardian is pretty much an aura bot that plays party only and as such requires 1/Xth of the defences solo player has)

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- 7% block, immune to stuns after blocking (i.e. all the time)

not quite. first hit can still stun you. fairly dangerous if you are NOT used to being stunned and your survival depends on ability to react

immunity to stun (all the time) and conditional immunity to stun are two very different beasts

How good is coil compared to 27k armour in numbers (27k armour is nothing for Juggernaut).

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So, how good are these 27k actually, let's say compared to a Coil ?

The current version of coil got 30% as lightning, which means ~23% reduction.
Against a 10.000 physical hit, you reduce 2300 with Coil

Against a 10.000 physical hit, you reduce with armor:
dmg_red = 1/[1+(dmg*10/armor)] = 1/1+100000/27000 = 1/4.7 = 0.21 = 21% reduction

I've chosen already a god damn huge hit. I dont think anything does hit for like 10k. Already in that szenario, coil is only slightly better. Against smaller hits in the 5k range, you get with 27k armor already 35% reduction, which is substantial better. And a 5K hit is already only something you can expect from a max charged Powerful Crit Bone Roa. In the range of 2700 phys hits you get already 50% reduction, which means everything under 2k phys hits are a joke for you ;)

tltr. armour is just bether in most of scenario.

From this thread
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1398447

I had marauder and when it came to the point when i had to choose between juggernaut or berserker I was wondering for a while, but it eventually killed juggernaut option, why? because with berserker i get same amount of armor from iron reflexes+grace and capped phys mitigation with 7 end charges. The only two things jugg offers over berserker is that he can use determination aura instead of IR+grace with +1 end charge, and unstoppable node which is niche.