SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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andreicde wrote:

The problem is that even in that voluntary survey GGG did not asked the right questions. If you look at the questions, it mentions if it was done solo or not, used silver keys or not, silver caches and the level . It lacks critical questions though such as:

Sure does, it lacks some I would like to ask as well as a boatload of those others would like to ask. If they didn't, that means they don't plan to address those aspects of the lab presently.

Not sure they need clarification for some of those questions and I see people were adding them on their own anyway. For instance, the question about level is obvious, you don't do lab earlier because you aren't 100% certain of success, I don't think anyone is waiting until level 45 because it's his lucky number.

The party question could be interesting, though, I assume people don't like partying in lab because it's easy to run into a trap with all the crap flying left and right. Tried it once with old coc discharger in a party and I sure won't do that one again anytime soon. The other reason is probably because chest loot doesn't scale well enough.

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raics wrote:

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andreicde wrote:

The problem is that even in that voluntary survey GGG did not asked the right questions. If you look at the questions, it mentions if it was done solo or not, used silver keys or not, silver caches and the level . It lacks critical questions though such as:

Sure does, it lacks some I would like to ask as well as a boatload of those others would like to ask. If they didn't, that means they don't plan to address those aspects of the lab presently.

Not sure they need clarification for some of those questions and I see people were adding them on their own anyway. For instance, the question about level is obvious, you don't do lab earlier because you aren't 100% certain of success, I don't think anyone is waiting until level 45 because it's his lucky number.

The party question could be interesting, though, I assume people don't like partying in lab because it's easy to run into a trap with all the crap flying left and right. Tried it once with old coc discharger in a party and I sure won't do that one again anytime soon. The other reason is probably because chest loot doesn't scale well enough.

The problem though if they don't plan to address those aspects of the lab is that it will improve the experience on lab but not by much. Let's say for player A the issue is traps and nothing is done about it even though now lab is shorter to reach in lower difficulties. He rated lab on a scale of 1 to 10 a 4. Now after the change it might change to say a 5.5 . While it is an improvement, the main issue he had with lab in the first place is still the traps element which was involved.

Others might try to use things toward the player such as ''get gud'' or ''learn to play''. What if the player knows how to play but hates traps regardless? Traps are very similar to platformer games, even if players like to admit it or not. Semantics don't really matter. If the player hates platformers, asking him to ''get gud'' or ''learn to play'' might just irritate the player and prompt a snarky response/insult.

So while GGG might not want to tackle with all issues, if they ignore the important points it will still not change much and possibly still bring a lot of heat from the lab.

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andreicde wrote:

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raics wrote:

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andreicde wrote:

The problem is that even in that voluntary survey GGG did not asked the right questions. If you look at the questions, it mentions if it was done solo or not, used silver keys or not, silver caches and the level . It lacks critical questions though such as:

Sure does, it lacks some I would like to ask as well as a boatload of those others would like to ask. If they didn't, that means they don't plan to address those aspects of the lab presently.

Not sure they need clarification for some of those questions and I see people were adding them on their own anyway. For instance, the question about level is obvious, you don't do lab earlier because you aren't 100% certain of success, I don't think anyone is waiting until level 45 because it's his lucky number.

The party question could be interesting, though, I assume people don't like partying in lab because it's easy to run into a trap with all the crap flying left and right. Tried it once with old coc discharger in a party and I sure won't do that one again anytime soon. The other reason is probably because chest loot doesn't scale well enough.

The problem though if they don't plan to address those aspects of the lab is that it will improve the experience on lab but not by much. Let's say for player A the issue is traps and nothing is done about it even though now lab is shorter to reach in lower difficulties. He rated lab on a scale of 1 to 10 a 4. Now after the change it might change to say a 5.5 . While it is an improvement, the main issue he had with lab in the first place is still the traps element which was involved.

Others might try to use things toward the player such as ''get gud'' or ''learn to play''. What if the player knows how to play but hates traps regardless? Traps are very similar to platformer games, even if players like to admit it or not. Semantics don't really matter. If the player hates platformers, asking him to ''get gud'' or ''learn to play'' might just irritate the player and prompt a snarky response/insult.

So while GGG might not want to tackle with all issues, if they ignore the important points it will still not change much and possibly still bring a lot of heat from the lab.

Yup, improvements or adjustments to the lab will still leave some people dissatisfied, but GGG isn't here to please everyone, that task is impossible.


If people hate traps or the playstyle around it, then aside from learning how to deal with them better there isn't too much they can do, compared to if a player hates the multi stage boss fight and the mechanic he has, people can duo it and get someone else to carry.

Which goes back to the original intention of this thread, which was to remove ac from lab (because of traps) or offer a way to not deal with traps. Seems like GGG is content with traps being in the lab and they are making other adjustments that seem more logical, given the changes to the game in 3.0

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andreicde wrote:

So while GGG might not want to tackle with all issues, if they ignore the important points it will still not change much and possibly still bring a lot of heat from the lab.

Sure enough. Said it myself some pages ago, small incremental changes are what we can expect but they hardly have the power to turn hate into acceptance overnight. Anyway, they can't just wave a magic wand and make traps 'not traps' right now, which is why they aren't interested in the player opinion on the core concepts.

Speaking of which, what exactly makes the man a man... sorry, Hellboy kicked in, I meant what exactly makes a trap so trappy? Is it the concept of moving away from a telegraphed threat or a predictably-moving damage source? Can't be, the game is chock full of that. Maybe it's the damage profile? Nah, it's no different than Bear trap and that's hardly a new skill. Might be percentage damage? But we have tons of effects in the game which are practically guaranteed to do a lot of damage to you, some can even kill you outright.

Is there something else? I'm out of ideas. Except for the suggestion effect, maybe it's just supposed to look different from the rest of the game in our eyes so it actually does.

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Phrazz wrote:

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I've written about improvements several times in this thread, and so have others. If you CHOOSE to ignore that, that's also on you. You're so far into the "this is what we got, deal with it" bubble, that you don't seem able of consider any possibilities what so ever.

It's almost like you think the lab is PERFECT, and the ULTIMATE way of getting the ascendancy points. Every other option in the world, every idea, every rework, is idiotic just because; "this is what we've got, deal with it".

I wonder have the world would look with that attitude.

The partial solution chosen by GGG appears to be a good one, in my opinion. However, it would not have been a very good suggestion for Regulator to put in the OP. The reason I say that is that it plays into the false narrative made by [Removed by Support] and others that we "want to be able to get the power, essentially without doing anything at all". Basically just cutting out the bulk of not fun content from the labyrinth without any compensating challenges being added, at least for the first two labyrinths.

I would have liked many others suggestions in the OP better. BUT, the huge advantage of the GGG chosen solution was that it was probably fairly easy to implement. That directly translates into getting a significant improvement now rather than later. That's why I believe that this partial solution by GGG appears to be a good one.

GGG is finally changing some stuff to the lab. How crazy is this?

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1921988/page/1


And this is the proof, there are no lab hater or player with lacking skill, the lab was just not properly design and we are a big family loving each other ;-). See u guys in the new coming lab!

*hipe*

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Wp_blitzi wrote:

GGG is finally changing some stuff to the lab. How crazy is this?

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1921988/page/1


And this is the proof, there are no lab hater or player with lacking skill, the lab was just not properly design and we are a big family loving each other ;-). See u guys in the new coming lab!

*hipe*

Thank you for your comments and two labyrinth threads saying that GGG really needed to make a change like this. Victory laps are lots of fun aren't they!!! :-)

I don't think the word "victory" is appropriate. All that's occurred is a minor mitigation of the abomination. The game is still 1/4 of the game it was before the lab was inflicted on us.

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Truper17 wrote:

I don't think the word "victory" is appropriate. All that's occurred is a minor mitigation of the abomination. The game is still 1/4 of the game it was before the lab was inflicted on us.

Well, I have not played the 3.0 Beta so I'm just going by forum feedback. Here's my understanding/view.

I agree that the problem introduced by the Labyrinth is not yet completely solved. But, up until this point the main improvements have been bug fixes for the hugely buggy labyrinth release and reduction in trials. Those were good things but not sufficient from my point of view for the game to be playable again for me.

Here's my personal history on this issue, after first loading PoE onto my computer in July 2013, it was the only game I played until Labyrinth was released. Once labyrinth was release I started playing other games about half time and PoE the other half time. I did that for a few leagues but finally just stopped playing PoE altogether due to the not fun labyrinth.

The current plan for 3.0 is, if I understand correctly, to reduce the first two labyrinths to have minimal trap gauntlets. Since I'm not overly concerned with the final two ascendancy points for most builds, that is eliminating about 2/3 of the not fun game play for most builds I would plan on playing. I believe that may be sufficient for me to be able to play PoE again, at least part time if not full time.

I believe that GGG has demonstrated with these two threads that GGG now recognizes that Labyrinth has problems that they would like to address.

Changes to the Labyrinth
Labyrinth Changes in Beta Feedback

I believe that further improvements to the not fun game play portion of labyrinth may likely be made in future releases.

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andreicde wrote:

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raics wrote:

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EnjoyTheJourney wrote:

But, you're investing a disproportionate amount of significance in a minor event (ie: a survey) that was pretty much guaranteed to go how it did, given the strongly negative feelings a multitude of players have about lab.

Hell, maybe I am, it's hard to say how much of the ginormous amount of daily freeform feedback is getting where it should. Based on their comments and reactions I'm assuming it isn't much, but who knows.

I already mentioned the reason they can't ask those other questions like this. What they did in the thread is voluntary feedback, it's much cheaper and faster than random sample and is very useful if you want to learn specific things when the subject's disposition is not important. For like/dislike I'm afraid you'd have to use the random sample, that's the phone thing you mentioned and it's what they would do if they really wanted to find out what the playerbase thinks about the lab. USA elections were a very good example of this, they used the voluntary survey to try showing that Hillary is winning and random sample would show that the opposite is true. Sure, they did it on purpose because I don't think they hired a total idiot for the campaign but it still shows you need a proper tool if you want real results.

The problem is that even in that voluntary survey GGG did not asked the right questions. If you look at the questions, it mentions if it was done solo or not, used silver keys or not, silver caches and the level . It lacks critical questions though such as:

''
-What do you think of the current state of the traps in labyrinth?''
-What would you think could be done to improve labyrinth?
-What are your current thoughts on the Itzaro fight phases?''

They did ask the right questions, they didn't ask your questions though.
They needed specific answers, you do not know exactly what they were doing.

They needed specific answers.
Not "what do you think about that ?" which would give hundreds if not thousands of different kind of answers to treat eventually.

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andreicide wrote:

So while GGG might not want to tackle with all issues, if they ignore the important points it will still not change much and possibly still bring a lot of heat from the lab.

No they don't, they have not bee ignoring anything.
They stated couple of times in podcasts ( and probably other medias ) their position about the lab.
How some people here refuse to accept that GGG did say those things is silly, those are the ones ignoring GGG's communication, not the other way around.

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Wp_blitzi wrote:

And this is the proof, there are no lab hater or player with lacking skill, the lab was just not properly design and we are a big family loving each other ;-). See u guys in the new coming lab!

Have you actually read the content of that thread ??
What the op is asking for is completely different from what is being done now, the design of the lab seldom changes, it just becomes incremental and more rewards are given from silver caches.
But the merc lab stays the same, the uber lab stays the same, the first ones become just a bit more easy.

And there definitely are players lacking skills, obviously.
If people start saying that they have no problem with the normal/cruel lab but still with merc/uber later on ... that will be an obvious proof of it.