SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

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canjp wrote:

Killable traps seems good idea.

There is some in the uber lab (really they are just stuff that makes the traps more difficult)

They are designed to not just DPS them. Many of them have levers to keep various things in place, specific patterns to avoid the damage, ect.

Terrible idea

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raics wrote:

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andreicde wrote:

The difference through is that we're talking of single-player versus multiplayer and POE is also notorious for having lag spikes and d/c can happen as well. Now granted some might say it's my internet but ironically POE is the only game with such situations (not to mention they do not have servers in many countries, which is one of my issues.)

I see you never played Andromeda, it's buggier than a Bethesda game on release day.

Hey! Bethesda games have no bugs. They have features...

There's 24 different ideas documented in the OP. Many combinations are available to make it many dozens. Only a silly fool or a troll would think that GGG would have to pick one of these. Heck, Regulator adds new ideas all the time. The important point is that GGG continues to improve the labyrinth. Almost every point release GGG has made at least some improvement to labyrinth. Why? Because this thread and over 330 others have made it clear to GGG that many in the player base do not like the labyrinth content.

Now in the beginning many of the fixes were plain bug fixes. The labyrinth release was a very horribly buggy release. Suffering from many implementation and design bugs. GGG continues to improve the labyrinth. It appears that some of the best improvements to labyrinth yet have been implemented and targeted for 3.0.

I believe that Saltygames' prediction

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They will do more, mark my words

is absolutely correct, mark my words

The game will change next year, and since I'm afraid of nothing :
mark my words !!!

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Turtledove wrote:

Almost every point release GGG has made at least some improvement to labyrinth. Why? Because this thread and over 330 others have made it clear to GGG that many in the player base do not like the labyrinth content.

let's check what 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 (major patches) brought, as labyrinth improvements :

2.4.0 :

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Renamed the Labyrinth item "Orb of Elemental Essence" to "Orb of Elemental Dispersion" to avoid confusion.
[...]
Labyrinth Item Enchantments for Storm Call Duration have been weakened. In Merciless, the duration is 20% lower (rather than 30%). In the Endgame Labyrinth, the duration is 30% lower (rather than 45%). Nearly-instant Storm Calls were a problem. It has its delay for a reason. There are still legacy versions of this Enchantment.

2.6.0 :

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Fixed a bug where Labyrinth/Trial traps would do too much damage to you if your energy shield was protecting your mana instead of your life.

So much change there !
And none of it is actually related to the OP, none of it changes any of the design that people are QQing about here.

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Fruz wrote:

The game will change next year, and since I'm afraid of nothing :
mark my words !!!

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Turtledove wrote:

Almost every point release GGG has made at least some improvement to labyrinth. Why? Because this thread and over 330 others have made it clear to GGG that many in the player base do not like the labyrinth content.

let's check what 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 (major patches) brought, as labyrinth improvements :

2.4.0 :

"

Renamed the Labyrinth item "Orb of Elemental Essence" to "Orb of Elemental Dispersion" to avoid confusion.
[...]
Labyrinth Item Enchantments for Storm Call Duration have been weakened. In Merciless, the duration is 20% lower (rather than 30%). In the Endgame Labyrinth, the duration is 30% lower (rather than 45%). Nearly-instant Storm Calls were a problem. It has its delay for a reason. There are still legacy versions of this Enchantment.

2.6.0 :

"

Fixed a bug where Labyrinth/Trial traps would do too much damage to you if your energy shield was protecting your mana instead of your life.

So much change there !
And none of it is actually related to the OP, none of it changes any of the design that people are QQing about here.

You did leave out some things like reducing boring trials, trap damage based on 60% ES, etc. and many other bug fixes for lots of patch releases so that PoE wouldn't continue to be a client crashing game. But thank you for proving my point!

You mean things that happened outside of 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 ?

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Fruz wrote:

let's check what 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 (major patches) brought, as labyrinth improvements :

It's the message before ....
And the OP is not about bugs, it's basically about everything else.
As an example, most bugs are now gone, yet you guys are bitching all the same, funny heh.

Everybody wants the actual bugs to be gone, this is not relevant to the topic at all here, once more.

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Fruz wrote:

You mean things that happened outside of 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 ?

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Fruz wrote:

let's check what 2.4.0 and 2.6.0 (major patches) brought, as labyrinth improvements :

It's the message before ....
And the OP is not about bugs, it's basically about everything else.
As an example, most bugs are now gone, yet you guys are bitching all the same, funny heh.

Everybody wants the actual bugs to be gone, this is not relevant to the topic at all here, once more.

Hes just trying to be relevant in any way possible, but hes not.

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There's 24 different ideas documented in the OP. Many combinations are available to make it many dozens. Only a silly fool or a troll would think that GGG would have to pick one of these.

24 different ideas and GGG ignores EVERY, SINGLE ONE OF THEM. If that isn't an indication of the threads failure I honestly don't know what you would consider failure.

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Heck, Regulator adds new ideas all the time. The important point is that GGG continues to improve the labyrinth. Almost every point release GGG has made at least some improvement to labyrinth. Why? Because this thread and over 330 others have made it clear to GGG that many in the player base do not like the labyrinth content.

But the purpose of this thread and most of those 330 others are not to improve the lab, its to remove the need to do it. One you guys have failed at, spectacularly btw. No one here is going to complain about improvements or minor adjustments because even if we do enjoy the lab some changes to the game were going to happen with 3.0 and the new act system.

As I've already explained (and you ignored) the 3.0 redesign of the difficulty and repetition is a good time to implement a more streamlined approach to AC classes as well and therefore balance the game for leveling with people getting the points as well. Overall a pretty good approach to the situation. If it quell some complains about the lab, then thats just an added bonus, but it won't stop you from complaining, it won't stop OP from complaining because you don't want to do the lab at all and GGG is basically saying "we don't give a fuck"

Again the best time to separate them if they were going to is 3.0, but they aren't now are they? Hell they aren't doing anything in the OP or anything suggested in this thread, if they've listened to and followed any suggestions regarding the lab it was various streamers wanting normal and cruel to be shorter. Part of me thinks Chris did as well, but left it to take longer because they didn't have time to readjust the acts, which now they obviously are.

Do I think normal should be as short as it is now, probably not TBH, but cruel is about on target. If the trials are an introduction to the trap mechanics, then the normal lab is an introduction to the lab and the mechanics of izaro.

You praising GGG for these changes they've done is sort of an indication that you've honestly already given up. If you were the same person from a year ago you would be gunning hard and talking shit about how you still don't want to do the lab at all, I believe we even talked a year ago about how various things could be improved or adjusted and you didn't want to hear it, you want AC points outside of the lab and there isn't any change that GGG can do aside from that to stop you from bitching. By all means correct me if that statement is wrong

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goetzjam wrote:

But the purpose of this thread and most of those 330 others are not to improve the lab, its to remove the need to do it.

Maybe it WAS, I don't know. Maybe A LOT of people want this. But this thread is also about rework. And there are several people in here wanting ADJUSTMENTS/ADDITIONS to the lab, to make it a more interesting place that doesn't feel like "tedious shit you have to do". Because "tedious shit you have to do" isn't - in my eyes - the "peak" of game design.

Maybe stop generalizing everything and everyone, and defining this thread based on a handful of poster just because you are sick of them.

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

But the purpose of this thread and most of those 330 others are not to improve the lab, its to remove the need to do it.

Maybe it WAS, I don't know. Maybe A LOT of people want this. But this thread is also about rework. And there are several people in here wanting ADJUSTMENTS/ADDITIONS to the lab, to make it a more interesting place that doesn't feel like "tedious shit you have to do". Because "tedious shit you have to do" isn't - in my eyes - the "peak" of game design.

Maybe stop generalizing everything and everyone, and defining this thread based on a handful of poster just because you are sick of them.

Where in this post do you see anything about improving it, they want to be able to get the power, essentially without doing anything at all. Now the normal excuse is that its different blah blah and they would make a challenge solo only or something to makeup for whatever it is they think is fair, but the truth of the matter is this is an online ARPG, its not meant to punish multiplayers (except in rare cases like uber atziri) even so it still allows for people to attempt to do it.

That isn't to say some people don't want adjustments or changes and that GGG's actions arent going to help them, that isn't what the loudest voices in this thread sought out to do, yet they are claiming victory on something they likely had no influence over and something that a year ago, if suggested they would easily shot down as not enough.

So maybe GGG threw a bone in the general direction of the overall idea of the lab, but it likely is more related to other aspects then this thread, because honestly this thread has a severe lack of direction and moderation.



Let me ask you, how you make a piece of content, designed around rewarding completion more interesting to do, when getting from point a to b, b to c much less rewarding then the overall completion of the content.

For me I feel like the length it takes for the power you get makes it rewarding enough, but for some people they see it is x amount of zones they need pass and don't feel any since of progression along the way.

Here's what I think the general context of the labyrinth is from the GGG perspective. The best data that we have is two recent GGG threads.

GGG announced that just the normal lab would be simplified in the thread. It was obviously sending up a trial balloon to get a general feel for where the player base stood on the issue.
Changes to the Labyrinth.


The thread opened a floodgate of labyrinth dislike outpouring from the player base. It was so amazing I decided to make an exception and do the analysis of new players posting labyrinth dislike in a thread outside the Feedback and Suggestions forum. There were about 117 new names added to the list. Over 330 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 910 posters in support GGG got the message and their response was to apparently cut back the first two labs to just bare bones labyrinths in the beta instead of just the first one.

GGG decided to check their newly implemented plan, that is cutting way back on the disliked content for both of the first two labs. Labyrinth Changes in Beta Feedback The first question asked was

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What is your opinion of the current Normal and Cruel versions of the Labyrinth? How does it compare to 3.0.0 Beta?

I think that this was the first question because it was obviously the most important question.

The overwhelming response was along the lines of "much better". The less crappy content the better.

So this is where we're at now. Now we have a Goetzjam telling the falsehood that this thread does not cover any enhancements to labyrinth. The suggested ideas are broken into two groups one for alternatives to lab and the second section for enhancements to the lab. Heck even the parenthetical part of the title of this thread includes reference to the truth that [Removed by Support]. What GGG chose to do in 3.0 is very similar to suggestions 1 and 2, basically cutting back on traps on the way to Izaro. Now I'm not pushing the idea that GGG looked at this OP and picked from there. The intended purpose of the list is more brain storming and giving examples of things that would "fix" the problem.

I think it's clear that GGG had the thought about reducing the labyrinth content in 3.0 in part, at least, because of there being many hundreds of threads in this forum and many hundreds of posters in this forum making their views known. Also this thread of 636 pages long is likely a forum record. Much thanks to that accomplishment must ironically be shared with both sides of the discussion.

The bottom line is that with the 3.0 changes we have a much better game to play, IMHO. Thank you ALL!