SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

Let's take for example a summoner, and we not talking an srs, but a summoner using spectres, zombies,golem and possibly skeletons. You have close to 13-14 minions moving on the screen even when you stand still everywhere. Lab has the bad habit of including traps which are not always obvious or push you into more traps. Darts for instance are the perfect example with their 70% slow which could be lethal if combined with a saw passing right through you. As a summoner it's a hard choice because on one end without minions traps would be much easier, but then monsters would be the issue. Lab either needs to be traps only and no fighting or fighting and no traps.

The other big issue is the fact layout is randomized, which means some combos will screw you even further. Some layouts are cake, while others make you want to bang your head on a wall. A bs layout I found in a final itzaro room had 3/4 of the map blocked due to fire on 2 sides, 6 darts divided into 3 on each side severely restricting your movement area. Add on the top of that itzaro and 14 minions covering half of the screen. On the other hand an RF build might simply laugh at that thing and deal with this np.

Lab would have been great to give uniques only and better rewards, but not ascendancy points. This just makes it feel mandatory (yes it might not be needed, but then again with that logic it's not needed to go further than Hillock in twilight normal, you could just farm monsters there for days). If they keep adding more content like that, it will just make even more players give up on the game .

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andreicde wrote:

Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

Let's take for example a summoner, and we not talking an srs, but a summoner using spectres, zombies,golem and possibly skeletons. You have close to 13-14 minions moving on the screen even when you stand still everywhere. Lab has the bad habit of including traps which are not always obvious or push you into more traps. Darts for instance are the perfect example with their 70% slow which could be lethal if combined with a saw passing right through you. As a summoner it's a hard choice because on one end without minions traps would be much easier, but then monsters would be the issue. Lab either needs to be traps only and no fighting or fighting and no traps.

The other big issue is the fact layout is randomized, which means some combos will screw you even further. Some layouts are cake, while others make you want to bang your head on a wall. A bs layout I found in a final itzaro room had 3/4 of the map blocked due to fire on 2 sides, 6 darts divided into 3 on each side severely restricting your movement area. Add on the top of that itzaro and 14 minions covering half of the screen. On the other hand an RF build might simply laugh at that thing and deal with this np.

Lab would have been great to give uniques only and better rewards, but not ascendancy points. This just makes it feel mandatory (yes it might not be needed, but then again with that logic it's not needed to go further than Hillock in twilight normal, you could just farm monsters there for days). If they keep adding more content like that, it will just make even more players give up on the game .

Edit: Also this comes from a guy that played guild wars 2 where the same BS happen, where they started adding platformer crap in endgame content. If I want that, I'd play Mario

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Zalhan2 wrote:

The lab isn't like leveling. Its a cock block for people that do not like platform gaming.

The normal>merciless ones are exactly like leveling. You go thru a few zones, instead of fighting multiple bosses you fight one that develops based on previous actions you have done.

Its not a block at all, very few builds would actually struggle against the content if they even attempted to plan around it. If you don't like the style of moving to avoid damage, then you don't like various boss fight encounters, you don't like the new volitie or bearers, ect. Moving to avoid damage at certain times is not something even new to this game.

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goetzjam wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

The lab isn't like leveling. Its a cock block for people that do not like platform gaming.

The normal>merciless ones are exactly like leveling. You go thru a few zones, instead of fighting multiple bosses you fight one that develops based on previous actions you have done.

Its not a block at all, very few builds would actually struggle against the content if they even attempted to plan around it. If you don't like the style of moving to avoid damage, then you don't like various boss fight encounters, you don't like the new volitie or bearers, ect. Moving to avoid damage at certain times is not something even new to this game.

yeah but the difference between traps and bosses is that traps do % based damage

which is super awful....

it negates you building decisions

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goetzjam wrote:

If you don't like the style of moving to avoid damage, then you don't like various boss fight encounters, you don't like the new volitie or bearers, ect. Moving to avoid damage at certain times is not something even new to this game.

Stop "generalizing", please. You actually view these two things as "the same"?

1: A boss fight, where you have to avoid certain attacks, and then get in position to kill him
2: A themed part of the game, designed around traps you have to avoid, for no apparent other than making to get from A to B more "challenging"?

Yes, it's about "avoiding" damage, but it's far from the same thing, no matter how hard to try to argument the case. Following your logic, every game in the world is about the "same thing". Please...

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Phrazz wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

If you don't like the style of moving to avoid damage, then you don't like various boss fight encounters, you don't like the new volitie or bearers, ect. Moving to avoid damage at certain times is not something even new to this game.

Stop "generalizing", please. You actually view these two things as "the same"?

1: A boss fight, where you have to avoid certain attacks, and then get in position to kill him
2: A themed part of the game, designed around traps you have to avoid, for no apparent other than making to get from A to B more "challenging"?

Yes, it's about "avoiding" damage, but it's far from the same thing, no matter how hard to try to argument the case.

not to mention that every lvling boss can be over leveled if you want to do it that way

traps... not so much

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Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

I like pulling numbers out of my ass and making statements that I have no idea how I can possibly defend it. Aka your lab is n1 thing that rips characters in HC. Fucking rofl, what an ignorant ass statement to make. Nice fucking level 57 character, let me guess your higher level characters all died in the lab to some mistake you made?

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Let's take for example a summoner, and we not talking an srs, but a summoner using spectres, zombies,golem and possibly skeletons. You have close to 13-14 minions moving on the screen even when you stand still everywhere. Lab has the bad habit of including traps which are not always obvious or push you into more traps. Darts for instance are the perfect example with their 70% slow which could be lethal if combined with a saw passing right through you. As a summoner it's a hard choice because on one end without minions traps would be much easier, but then monsters would be the issue. Lab either needs to be traps only and no fighting or fighting and no traps.

Its funny you mentioned a summoner. I'm playing one in closed beta and I'm using zombies\spectres, at least I was until I've switched over to trying out golems (still using zombies) Actually you mention the darts, zombies and your other minions actually protect you from them as well as spending any amount of time looking at the pattern would. The slow can be removed with a proper flask or avoiding the dart altogether, but of course its easier to just blame the mechanic, then it is to learn how to overcome the challenge.

Or the lab can be both, because its possible to do both.

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The other big issue is the fact layout is randomized, which means some combos will screw you even further. Some layouts are cake, while others make you want to bang your head on a wall. A bs layout I found in a final itzaro room had 3/4 of the map blocked due to fire on 2 sides, 6 darts divided into 3 on each side severely restricting your movement area. Add on the top of that itzaro and 14 minions covering half of the screen. On the other hand an RF build might simply laugh at that thing and deal with this np.

The fights per difficulty change and the layout on what to expect is shared if you care to do any amount of research. Some days might be much harder for you (like this fire pit one), while others that have spikes or sawblades might be much easier (as these traps do much less damage to minions overall then the fire pits I think)

Restricting movement isn't anything new, in fact some of the zones in 3.0 have very tiny areas to fight bosses. The zone you are describing in the final boss area is larger then malcahai 2nd stage (with the hearts)

RF builds have naturally high regen and I agree they can negate various trap encounters, but they still must consider a few. I've seen people make mistakes and die as RF builds to traps, like anyone that makes a large enough mistake can die. That isn't exclusive to the lab, if you fuck up enough you will die.

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Lab would have been great to give uniques only and better rewards, but not ascendancy points. This just makes it feel mandatory (yes it might not be needed, but then again with that logic it's not needed to go further than Hillock in twilight normal, you could just farm monsters there for days). If they keep adding more content like that, it will just make even more players give up on the game .

If you give up whenever GGG adds anything of remote difficulty, I can't wait until they release 3.0 and I hope they don't tone down any of the new bosses.


Statements like lab would have been great if it wasnt for this one thing I really want out of it being available somewhere else is just about as ignorant of a statement as you can make. No really, you dislike the content and make a bunch of incorrect assessments about it and want to complement it at the end? ROFL

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k1rage wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Zalhan2 wrote:

The lab isn't like leveling. Its a cock block for people that do not like platform gaming.

The normal>merciless ones are exactly like leveling. You go thru a few zones, instead of fighting multiple bosses you fight one that develops based on previous actions you have done.

Its not a block at all, very few builds would actually struggle against the content if they even attempted to plan around it. If you don't like the style of moving to avoid damage, then you don't like various boss fight encounters, you don't like the new volitie or bearers, ect. Moving to avoid damage at certain times is not something even new to this game.

yeah but the difference between traps and bosses is that traps do % based damage

which is super awful....

it negates you building decisions

It negates overgearing the challenge and instead you must pay attention to the mechanics, if anything boss style encounters should do the same to an extent. Its a way to ensure that its going to be challenging.

That isnt to say it ignores all choices you can make. Basalt will still help you mitigate the damage, MOM will now help more against some of the traps that it didn't before. Ect ect.

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Stop "generalizing", please. You actually view these two things as "the same"?

1: A boss fight, where you have to avoid certain attacks, and then get in position to kill him
2: A themed part of the game, designed around traps you have to avoid, for no apparent other than making to get from A to B more "challenging"?

Yes, it's about "avoiding" damage, but it's far from the same thing, no matter how hard to try to argument the case. Following your logic, every game in the world is about the "same thing". Please...

The lab, where you avoid certain traps so you can get passed them and then go onto fight the boss.

The reason is that it ties into the whole idea of the encounters. It ties into the lore and yes it does make getting from point a>b more difficult, else there would be no complaints like the guy above me saying that the lab is #1 killer in hardcore with absolutely no fucking way to prove it.

I'm saying that complaining about traps is the same as complaining about any encounter where you know where to avoid. MMO, ARPG, doesn't really matter specifically.

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not to mention that every lvling boss can be over leveled if you want to do it that way

Currently, maybe, but you can't really overlevel the bosses in 3.0 because there isn't great zones to grind for XP like there is dried lake. I mean your in your 50s for quite a long time.....

still think traps doing % based damage is retarded

its just bad

I want the option to out gear it and out level it like everything else in game

I play HC

I only get one chance

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Turtledove wrote:

Regarding your patch notes comments, the terms being discussed are not black and white. Different organizations and points of view can refer to these terms in different ways within different contexts. That means that a certain definition within one context is not the correct definition for all contexts.

The wording in the patchnotes was but an example.
Another element to consider :
Usually, when you "fix" a bug, it's a problem where when the solution is reached, it's done, no need to go back on it (if it has really been fixed).
If a similar issue happens in the future because of collateral changes, then ... it could be another bug, but that looks the same, but inside, it will be a different issue, even if so slightly.

However, there will never be a perfect state of balance, you cannot completely say that a balance issue has been "fixed".
Is that 60% coefficient on ES a "fix" ?
Why is it not 59% ? or 61% ?
It's neither because it's not a bug, and there will never be a "definite" solution to the balance problems, and it will keep evolving.

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andreicde wrote:

Honestly the whole gating ascendancy behind lab is complete and utter BS. Before someone pulls a ''you also want everything easy peasy'', Lab is nr 1 thing that rips characters in HC because it's not optimized for all builds, it's a mix of both fighting and traps which hinders some builds.

Nothing is "optimized" for all builds in the game, period.
N1 HC killer ?
If you had not tried to pull random stuff out of your .... you would have stay more credible maybe, but you are only showing that you don't know what you are talking about, you have no idea about this, but you've never gone over lvl 60 in HC anyway so ...

The fact that some layouts are easier than others does exactly the same as the rest of the game as it's all Rng, some maps will be piss easy some some combination while being very risky with some others, same for boxes, same for essence monsters, same for even some particular rare with a specific mods combination.
It's all Rng, nothing new about this.

I used to think that lab was a bit too harsh on summoners, until I saw some people (summoners, spepcters) claiming that they would go through the lab, not loosing a single minion.

The Izaro mechanics with the current AI might be another story though, not sure.

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Phrazz wrote:

1: A boss fight, where you have to avoid certain attacks, and then get in position to kill him
2: A themed part of the game, designed around traps you have to avoid, for no apparent other than making to get from A to B more "challenging"?

I guess that the main reason is "the game is trying to kill your character", like how the game used to be .... before people started thinking of it as "the game that gives you targets so that you can destroy them and lvl up".
I think that there is a middle ground to find there, it's not completely like the rest of the game, but there are clear similarities as he pointed out.

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Phrazz wrote:

Yes, it's about "avoiding" damage, but it's far from the same thing, no matter how hard to try to argument the case. Following your logic, every game in the world is about the "same thing". Please...

Well no, there are so many game types ... card games don't require you to position anything to avoid damage, usually :).

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k1rage wrote:

I want the option to out gear it and out level it like everything else in game

I play HC

I only get one chance

I am sorry, but it does kind of sound like "I want a possibility to have the game being easy, because I don't want to die in HC".