SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Can't really argue with that.

But hey, GGG are not doing nothing either :
- they are reducing normal's lab ( I heard cruel too ? )
- they are reducing the number of trials needed
- they already reduced the number of times trials need to be done ( per league only now )
- they adjusted ES values

It's not like they have done nothing.
What is clear, is that they don't want to move the Ascendancy points away from the lab.

Well said, Phrazz.

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Fruz wrote:

Can't really argue with that.

But hey, GGG are not doing nothing either :
- they are reducing normal's lab ( I heard cruel too ? )
- they are reducing the number of trials needed
- they already reduced the number of times trials need to be done ( per league only now )
- they adjusted ES values

It's not like they have done nothing.
What is clear, is that they don't want to move the Ascendancy points away from the lab.

Correct.

I welcome these changes with open arms. And I don't see many complaints about these changes, telling me that it isn't in many's interest to keep things the way they are. The lab is controversial, and GGG are more or less saying "well, maybe we threw in too much, here are some changes".

But, I DO miss a "KEEP LAB AS IT IS" thread :P

Shortening the normal lab is probably a good thing, the repetition from the acts is going away, it makes sense that they are at least trying to reduce this feeling for the lab too.
I'm wondering how they are justifying entering it again for the cruel/merc equivalent runs.

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Phrazz wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

Can't really argue with that.

But hey, GGG are not doing nothing either :
- they are reducing normal's lab ( I heard cruel too ? )
- they are reducing the number of trials needed
- they already reduced the number of times trials need to be done ( per league only now )
- they adjusted ES values

It's not like they have done nothing.
What is clear, is that they don't want to move the Ascendancy points away from the lab.

Correct.

I welcome these changes with open arms. And I don't see many complaints about these changes, telling me that it isn't in many's interest to keep things the way they are. The lab is controversial, and GGG are more or less saying "well, maybe we threw in too much, here are some changes".

But, I DO miss a "KEEP LAB AS IT IS" thread :P

Because even those of us that would prefer that, like myself, don't care enough to make such a stand. Change is coming all the time in a game like PoE. It's healthy and welcome.

"

Fruz wrote:

Shortening the normal lab is probably a good thing, the repetition from the acts is going away, it makes sense that they are at least trying to reduce this feeling for the lab too.

Speaking of repetition... what if they just made it one big run instead of four small ones? You complete the first one, get two points, unlock a waypoint and go back. Once you get an item through the main storyline that allows you to go further you just take the waypoint and continue, something like
Offering to the people for second segment
Offering to the emperor for the third and
Offering to the goddess for the final one

Maybe the trials could also be a bit larger so they can reduce the number of runs, so you'd do one trial for the second segment to get the item, two trials for the third and the remaining three for the uber lab, it would also be good because some trials are longer and harder as it is, like the fire one. The first lab segment would be free to enter and shorter so it would serve as an introduction instead of trials, I don't think those are doing much anyway.

So we get less repetition, less trials and lab also feels bigger.

That would make a lot of sense, if well done, I like that.
Now, about the fight's mechanics ... they would likely keep the existing ones, they could put only 3 possibilities for the first two points, 6 for the 2 next ones, 8 for the next two, and just all for the uber version.

Do we have all Izaro's mechanics from the "normal" lab in the beta still, btw ?

"

Xavathos wrote:

don't care enough to make such a stand.

Which is why I think some of you struggle to see the how someone on the other end of the debate DO care that much. Yet you have made a "stand" throughout this thread :)

But now, I'm going to take a shower, and head outside and enjoy the one day of sun we have here in Norway, and then drink myself under the table.

And for the fourth time (I think), I'm done debating this. Until the fifth time, that is.

Changes need to occur in GGG before they'd put together an alternative to lab for POE's prestige classes. The main stimuli likely to affect this seem to be

1. Widespread recognition in GGG that lab is broadly disliked / hated / avoided when possible
2. A realization in GGG that quite a few long term supporters who have loved the game are having their experience spoiled by a single part of the game, which is lab
3. A realization that lab is likely shortening the life span of POE

If lab gets poor reviews during the platform release, then that would probably be a key motivator for change. GGG won't want their platform activities to be internally and externally viewed as a failure; if lab looks like a (partial) cause of problems, then fixing it would move further up the agenda. Another key motivator would be seeing a rise in the decay rate of players spending time in POE (drops in player count and/or time spent) after each new release of material, paired with anecdotal evidence that lab is a factor in falling retention rates.

Another key motivator to get an alternative for earning prestige class skills in place could be a sense within and outside GGG that, after revamping the entire game to cut down on repetition, it seems out of place for the most divisive content to be the content that players run the most.

The steady drumbeat of "I dislike lab" and "I hate lab" posts, together with the number of people ending up in Turtle's thread, are the factors in this forum that can help to shift internal discussions in GGG. Those busy with trying to argue against such posts haven't really had any degree of success in slowing down that drumbeat and have, ironically, ensured that drum beats more loudly and more often by keeping threads like this on or near the front page.

"

But, I DO miss a "KEEP LAB AS IT IS" thread :P

Well because adjustments can hopefully go a long way to solve some issues you guys might have, while still keeping the design and spirit of the lab in tact.


In terms of the adjusted lab, I REALLY don't like how the instance can have golden keys in the same area, not only does it actually take longer to get it in a lot of circumstances, but I don't fully understand the point of such a change, if there even is one.

Very few golden key setups prior to this change where out of the norm or didn't follow a certain setup, it seems like the largest benefit of having it in the same zone is some saved time on loading screen for those that aren't using an SSD.

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What is clear, is that they don't want to move the Ascendancy points away from the lab.

That has been clear since the introduction of the lab.

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Do we have all Izaro's mechanics from the "normal" lab in the beta still, btw ?

I'll admit I feel a bit spoiled playing on beta with the various changes they've made to mini map, performance, ect that i haven't felt a reason to play the lab too much in the current game, but I thought the last room in all difficulties had traps in the last room active. In the beta it seemed like the traps were disabled completely in normal, so overall doing that run is mostly "can I dps the boss and interact with the mechanics fine"

I can tell you cruel had charges, which is largely seen as a possible problematic encounter, but they may have slowed how quickly he gets charges in earlier difficulties of the lab.

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1. Widespread recognition in GGG that lab is broadly disliked / hated / avoided when possible

I mean GGG pretty much came out and said they don't care if you dislike the content, because you do it for the reward regardless.

"

2. A realization in GGG that quite a few long term supporters who have loved the game are having their experience spoiled by a single part of the game, which is lab

And they are just honestly crybabies, because the lab is a very, very small fraction of what a character "needs" to do, that if they can't get over that hump and accept it, then they are just being entitled.

"

3. A realization that lab is likely shortening the life span of POE

That isn't the case, considering the popularity of the game is higher then it has ever been since the introduction of the lab and its only increased, go ahead and pull out some number to back up your statement.

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If lab gets poor reviews during the platform release, then that would probably be a key motivator for change. GGG won't want their platform activities to be internally and externally viewed as a failure; if lab looks like a (partial) cause of problems, then fixing it would move further up the agenda. Another key motivator would be seeing a rise in the decay rate of players spending time in POE (drops in player count and/or time spent) after each new release of material, paired with anecdotal evidence that lab is a factor in falling retention rates.

I somewhat agree, if the lab isn't seen that well by a large number of console gamers it could have an effect on the PC realm, on the other hand it is a separate realm so if they feel they need to adjust the damage to be less on traps, less trap obstacles or whatever on xbox they could.

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Another key motivator to get an alternative for earning prestige class skills in place could be a sense within and outside GGG that, after revamping the entire game to cut down on repetition, it seems out of place for the most divisive content to be the content that players run the most.

Run the most? How long do you spend in an act at least 15 min, but most spend significantly longer. The lab takes 10 min tops in normal, 15 min in cruel and if your REALLY slow 20 min in merciless. I haven't gotten to uber in beta yet, because I'm missing one trial and trying to see how long it takes to find it.

"

The steady drumbeat of "I dislike lab" and "I hate lab" posts, together with the number of people ending up in Turtle's thread, are the factors in this forum that can help to shift internal discussions in GGG. Those busy with trying to argue against such posts haven't really had any degree of success in slowing down that drumbeat and have, ironically, ensured that drum beats more loudly and more often by keeping threads like this on or near the front page.

Most of which are effectively shitpost, because they don't actually contain feedback, but rather just cry about something they don't want to do. I don't think GGG puts much thought into feedback post that don't identify the problem and specially state why its a problem for them. Most people only do the first part when discussing the lab, not the later. Hell the OP of this post is suppose to suggest alternatives, based on that fact, but he has abandoned almost all of his original intention, mostly because he probably knows GGG isn't going to do anything but tweaks and adjustments, not remove the lab, not remove AC from lab and not remove traps from lab.