SET FREE THE ASCENDANCY POINTS (or rework the lab) [New ascension methods/lab rework ideas]

Just watched the 3.0 video teaser and saw this at the end: "Six new acts. A single playthrough.".
But they choose to keep :
- 4 X (useless) trials
- 4 X Labyrinth

Isn't the "single playthrough" thing there to avoid repetitive content ?

My point of view:
- completely remove all trials
- remove normal, cruel and merciless Labyrinth
- keep uber Labyrinth as something that unlocks ascendency class (and maybe a few points)
- dispatch ascendency points as rewards from the new bosses or from specific map bosses

4 x trials + 4 x lab just doesn't make sense (at least for me) in a single playthrough configuration. This is so 2.x version of the game.

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sucemab wrote:

Just watched the 3.0 video teaser and saw this at the end: "Six new acts. A single playthrough.".
But they choose to keep :
- 4 X (useless) trials
- 4 X Labyrinth

Isn't the "single playthrough" thing there to avoid repetitive content ?

My point of view:
- completely remove all trials
- remove normal, cruel and merciless Labyrinth
- keep uber Labyrinth as something that unlocks ascendency class (and maybe a few points)
- dispatch ascendency points as rewards from the new bosses or from specific map bosses

4 x trials + 4 x lab just doesn't make sense (at least for me) in a single playthrough configuration. This is so 2.x version of the game.

You've done the trials before yes, but not everyone has. Its funny as much as new player argument gets used, the trials are there to introduce people into the mechanics that will be in the lab. Thats why you do them once per league, so you can get refreshed as well.

You are purposing moving the ability to get AC from early\mid\late game to ultra late game only, from there they go fetch the remaining points?

I don't think too many people would agree with that. It would help offset the massive power creep, but I doubt that causes less complaints. At least with the way it is now you can get AC points before you go do the end of act 4, which significantly helps.

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sucemab wrote:

Isn't the "single playthrough" thing there to avoid repetitive content ?

There is a huge difference between re-running an area that takes less than 30 mins and re-running thru the entire contents of acts 1-4...

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Shovelcut wrote:

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sucemab wrote:

Isn't the "single playthrough" thing there to avoid repetitive content ?

There is a huge difference between re-running an area that takes less than 30 mins and re-running thru the entire contents of acts 1-4...

Well, maybe some player like me or you do it in less than 30 minutes but by checking some feedbacks it takes longer for some players and they report it as a chore. 4 X lab just seems like overkill when they remove cruel and merciless. Just my 2 cents.

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Regulator wrote:

A much smaller number of players than the "lab-haters" like it as it is now

Now that's an interesting claim. Might have mentioned it before, but I actually did a small random survey of players ingame which has shown me that people currently playing the game lean to liking the lab more than I expected, the average was between 'indifferent' and 'somewhat like'.

So, if we assume that, say, 50% of the current playerbase is indifferent you'd get that kind of result if the remaining 50% is heavily skewed towards the 'like' side, at 5:1 or something. Which means than under 10% of the people currently in the game dislike the lab (mildly or strongly). That can only mean that people who hate the lab left the game, right? Well, we don't really see that on any graph available to us, so the amount of people ready to leave the game because of the lab was, dunno, 5% of the total or less?

Now, I do agree they didn't necessarily need to lose even those 5%, but if you ask me could they live without it - fuck yes.

Give it a shot once when you're bored, run around the towns in merciless about a month after league starts when the population is the most stable and even the slowest casuals did the labs and ask people what do they think of it, giving them five standard answers 'like, somewhat like, neutral, somewhat hate and hate'. You don't have to report your findings, just do it for yourself, you know, for the benefit of your immortal soul.

@raics

no need for guesses mate and random inquiries after a month where the most dedicated players contunue playing and farming the most rewarding are in the whole game, first of all those who hate the content are those who have made the complaints (those threads making everyone lose their sleep in feedback and general, and a year ago on reddit too), those who love the content are those who defend it with tooth and nail (the 10 sad souls constantly lurking in this thread to jump on people making fool of themselves in the process in other words). But enough with the oversimplifications and exaggerations.

A while ago i posted this regarding lab before endgame was introduced taking into account every single fact i could get my hands on like lab ladders, polls, thread here and reddit, plus the stats GGG had released at the time (6% lab YEAH!) and then i made the same for the breach month of DECEMBER:

"But lets go back again to the actual vocal minority thing. At the time GGG was rocking 30k people on steam and around double that on the standalone client so a total 90-100k of players. Even if the people complaining were the 5% (which i strongly believe were not, my personal opinion is like 15-20% at the time) thats still a portion of player that NO sane/logical company would like to lose or infuriate even further.

The daily lab ladders was the only way to count how many actually were running lab besides that 1 time to get their points, since GGG refused to give any info besides the pathetic 6% in the second week of perandus. If the assumption of 100k players at the time was correct, we had stats like 4% or 9% percent in the HC and SC leagues respectively without the uber. It was like 2k to 5k players running for enchants or something in all leagues combined. So why those players were more important than the 2k complaining about the lab? Or the other 2k that left the game?

Recently on the record breaking Breach, on the half to the last days of the first month (most intense period for a league) 7k-10k people running the lab between all four leagues divided in all for difficulties (normal, cruel, merciless, endgame) says alot about how much fun and loved the lab is. If we go even further and take out every 30+ minute run which is clearly not a farming run and an obvious point getting only run in all difficulties, the number goes down by 3k to an average of 4-5k players running it for fun and rewards. But lets say 10k players like the lab, because the ladders lie (which they do not), thats still a measly 10% of the playerbase if the 100k players assumption is correct-ish. And remember that since Breach broke records in player retention and numbers, we are possibly speaking for 120k players on both clients. "

And here is the fucking awesome thing, not only there is a generous 30+minute distinction for points only (people familiar or above average can easily go to 15minutes runs up to merciless) but that 10% of people like lab was with the estimation that there are 100k people daily, with 1million active the daily could have been 200k or 300k.

What we can make out of ladders and GGG stats plus their stance? The following :

1)GGG wants (or at least thats what they show us) the lab to be as it currently is for their own reasons

2)The overwhelming majority (speaking about 80%+) of the players do not care, and are used to it. They wont really care for alternatives, but also its highly likely that any change on that will be met with claps and open arms by the community. Changes usually evoke motion, neutral and positive ones evoke similar reactions.

3)a)Those who like the lab for its gameplay alone are less than any lab related group out there. b)Those who claim that they like the lab nowdays when asked are those who FARM the lab for REWARDS.

4)Those who hate the lab in a foundamental way are more than the 3a) group, less than 3b) but also belong to the group 5 below.

5)And then there are those who do it for the loot, and that percentage when you see the lab ladders is close to 5-10% of the total playerbase (even less if the 1million active players statement is true). And in that group there are people that also hate the lab, because its too damn lucrative to run lab for the rewards and so they do it.

6)For all the groups, alternatives to ascendancy points make either no difference (farmers will continue farming anyway) or a big positive difference (the player who can save 4xtrials + 4xlab worth of time plus the frustration of it)


As for asking random people in towns i have the exact opposite results than you raics. Also very recently after ziggyd interview with chris, mathil's stream exploded ONCE AGAIN when they refered to the labyrinth, 3k+ people overwhelmingly against lab spamming chat while mathil himself making a mocking sound on twitch critising chris and the lab related answer. Unless GGG gives some statistics regarding lab we will never be able to truly figure out the participation numbers and the subgroups that go into labyrinth. The above estimation i made some time ago is the closest thing to actual numbers we can get with the stats that are available to us.

"Tenacity and hard work is the mother of change"



GGG is the goverment and they follow what they believe is true. They started with a anarcho-communism but in the process introduced capitalistic ideas and practices and forced some of them to their working class. This thread is the working class union trying to abolish said acts, but would consider victory even the smallest recedence from the goverment. Those farming the lab belong to various classes some even belong to the worker's union, and have families that they want to support, and farming lab pays well. Those who are against any idea of change and sabotage the working class union's actions with shady and insidious ways are the far-right conservatives often employed by the goverment itself or the irrelevant nobodies that exist in every society that simply enjoy other people's misery. The working class union will strive and fight for what they think just and fair, because they have in mind all workers not just those close to them or that belong to the union, but also because they started building and working for an anarcho-communistic nation that they agreed with, that suddenly lost it's way. The working class union numbers are the lowest since a long time these days, you see many of them decided that even a dose of capitalism was enough for them to give up and move to another anarcho-communistc country, but the few that stayed behind hold tight to their beliefs, and would do anything to get their rights back to the point they started. The working class union still makes suggestions, and proposes ideas that can help the original vision of their country, but the goverment has tasted power and money beyond any imagination and were corrupted by those. Nowdays their decisions and actions arent based with the good of their people in their mind like they did the previous years, but put power first. Their decisions arent in line with those past visions and promises they made, they try to bring immigrants in masses so they can get more money from their work, making just enough public services to keep the majority of the population just were they want it, sleeping, working and paying taxes. They herd them like animals to exploit them as long as possible, and some like the goverment petting them, they are content with it. Nowdays the working class union is just a bunch of aged oldtimers, the young people dont care to take any political action, they are content with the situation and thus they dont strive to make their country better, and their goverment knows that, they added new taxes with every minor or major project, and everyone is happy to pay them as long as they get to work for their goverment a little bit longer. And the goverment is thriving, their far-right political actions contradicting their once interesting nation of hard working people, the once gamebreaking theories and acts made possible by creativity and teamwork now replaced by recycled old ideas that younger generations are well.. too young to know thus accepting everything that they are forced-fed and on top of that paying taxes as well. The spark of revolution was there the first time capitalism knocked the door, but the goverment hushed it with money and a new act that claimed everyone running uber lab would be 3 times more rich that he previously was. And thats a sad story indeed, cause the goverment recently announced some very big national projects, seemingly true to their old political views, and the sting of capitalism is not even felt nowdays by the younger generation, they still believe they live in the worlds first anarcho-communistic nation......

Look, that's all well and good what you're saying, but I'm still a really big fan of the 'random sample of the relevant group' method and you can't get a more relevant group than people that are playing the game at the moment. Forum goers are a special subgroup, redditors are also one and stream followers too, and none of them is exactly representative of an average PoE player, and that's who GGG is trying to please, not an average member of any previous subgroup.

It wasn't a fully blown customer survey with a proper sample size or anything, sure, but you have to understand my position here. If someone pointed a gun to my head and said 'pick one' I'd have to say that more active players like the lab then not because I saw at least some amount of evidence swinging that way. And, of course, that also means if someone claims the opposite I'd be more readily inclined not to believe them.

Well i am one of those that hate the lab.. Only reason i ever played the damn thing was to unlock sub classes..

My last character in breach league is the only character that ever got all 8 ascendancy points and i only bothered with the end game lab for the challenge..

Of all other characters i have maybe 3-4 got some ascendancy points but none of them ever picked up merciles ones..

I hate the damn thing so much i now have a really hard time to push myself and reroll a new character because i know ascendancy points are locked behind the lab.. Thats the reason i only bothered to level only one character this league and once i hit lvl 90 i stopped playing PoE.. Lab is also one of the main reasons i stopped playing on hardcore..

Just came back to PoE today after seeing the 3.0 trailer and the new league one and i thought lets revisit one of my old hc chars lvl 90 righteous fire marauder just to see how it works and naturally first thing i needed to do was pick up ascendancy points.. run normal lab, ok.. pain in the ass but ok.. some 30 min later run cruel lab and i almost died at that spinning trap thing.. my 8k+ life char almost melted in that thing.. Quit the game and im done till the new league starts in 2 weeks..

I dont have a problem with the lab itself because i dont play it.. I have a problem with ascendancy points being locked behind it.

For those that like the lab its still rewarding to run it without ascendancy points being in it.. U have enchants, loot and ladders..

Sry for my bad english :)

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The_Reporter wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

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Regulator wrote:

Opening post updated with a new idea posted by EnjoyTheJourney. Its inside the "Alternative Ascension Methods" spoiler.

We have 21 unique suggestions in the opening post ("Alternative Ascension Methods" and "Labyrinth Rework Ideas" spoilers), and there is always the extra one of combining some together. Thanks everyone for their help and replies, as well as for your tenacity and your ideas to improve this particular section of the game against all odds and the obvious neglect by GGG. Keep it up.

Thank you for keeping up with the massive "shitlist" of ideas on how to get something changed that they specifically like the way it is now.

I had hoped after time and time again that you might have got it thru the think skull of yours that GGG has no interest in removing the ascension method from the lab and that the dumbass arguments of frogger this, unfun that doesn't really matter when it comes to the largest power creep likely in any ARPG game ever.

Still seems like you got 40\40 so can't hate the game enough to want to quit, can't say the same for others apparently, which you know the hour or so total you have to spend fucking with the lab is too much to bear compared to the rest of the content people claim to be enjoying, including the broken ass, diviners boxes.

You only have 14. Why haven't you quit?

Either way, what Regulator says holds about 3 times the weight of anything you say.

It's pretty plain to see he's a much more accomplished gamer than you.

Just to be clear, what you're saying is that your opinion is worth a fourth of mine, and if I say that challenge completion doesn't mean anything to people who think things through, you're required to agree with me, because that's what you believe, and therefore not care about challenge completion relating to opinions. On that note the lab is only different in 2 aspects from the main game, traps and pseudo HC, but both of those are small aspects because you only need to really interact with traps 2-3% of the time, and it's not like you're dying willy nilly anyway. So maybe you just don't like this game.